Breastfeeding class divide?

[Yorkshirelassreturns]

No doubt this will be a controversial topic since in relates to our outdated but entrenched 'class system' but does anyone else think that breastfeeding has become more 'middle / upper class' with more 'working class' mums choosing to ff? Am curious as I was talking to my grandma today and she thinks it has but finds it funny as in her day, ff was the prestigious (for want of a better word) method of feeding and since ff is expensive, you would think that it would be the other way round. Just curious to hear people's views...

The sample size would probably be too small but I wonder whether having worked with animals esp newborns might make a difference? I found my experience of persuading lambs to feed was quite useful (though they seem to get the hang of it much quicker than the baby did!) Also knowing that newborn animals such as puppies spend more or less all their time with/on mum in the early days/weeks perhaps made the constant feeding a bit less surprising or frustrating and seem more normal. Just a thought triggered by the mention of dirty overalls earlier!

Although often women from immigrant communities have very high BF rates despite often being relatively poor. So perhaps some it is cultural/what you see people in your community doing

Yes, I know this from work. And they're immune from some of the "but suuurely you attached parent/co-sleep assumptions as those are outside of their own class/caste systems. They don't wax lyrical about how Westfield and Starbucks are sooo BF friendly dahling, so why would anyone not do it...? (Sorry cheap shot but something I've actually heard).
Which further makes me about the validity of the stereotypes we have in some circles... dare I say, predominantly white/urban, where 'chav' is an insult and means you're an outsider.

But then again I know this because although I'm an average London comprehensive schooled type, I have gone one to higher/further education and a 'worthy' job.

Had I not, would I write off BF as 'not for me' based on the way it is sometimes portrayed as a 'package' by some..? I honestly don't know.

Also an acceptance that mum and baby come as a package and babe will be attached to each other for long periods ( I can still hear my Uc MIL saying are you feeding him again ? Why don't you put him down ? This was 10 years ago )

Also an acceptance that mum and baby come as a package and babe will be attached to each other for long periods

Or equally though, that this (after the initial months) will vary a lot depending on the family set up (who has to work? Are there 2 parents or one? Will baby take EBM from dad? etc'), work, personalities, health (what if your back is shot so you can't use a sling?) etc' and this is OK you can still feed your baby in the way you want to.

If mum can afford to attached parent at home for all time, and dad goes out to work (which is the way with several of those who use the C-H-A-V word on me from time to time), wonderful ... but if that is seen as 'how' you parent when you BF it would exclude loads of people from the offset.
Having seen a wide range of women from different cultures with different rules about body, work patterns etc' BF their babies there really is a contrast which is perhaps not explored as much as it might be by some (disclaimer MY CIRCLE OF) 30-something-middle-class women and indeed many other people who don't see childcare in a variety of cultures.
Leading to the perpetuation of this (incorrect) idea that BFing only works if you have a naice £260 snuzpod or co-sleep and speak naicely and buy everything from Waitrose while daddy is out at work.

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Thats really interesting about nearly all Chinese mothers initiating bf. MIL (born in HK) was much less supportive of bf than my mother (white british). However Mum didn't give me or my brother formula. MIL moved all her kids to formula by 3 months.

I also have very, very clear memories of mainland Chinese families queuing to get through the border from HK to China with mounds of nappies and formula. Not only did they want the formula, they wanted the stuff "fit" for HK babies, rather than risk the local brands. Excelent take up rates may not translate to overall bf rates (but I've got a very, very small sample)

I think the biggest thing would be to normalise bf. I didn't ever really contemplate formula as an option other than if bf didn't work. Baby mamals take milk from their mother. I don't know when this "fact" was put in my head, but I've never really questioned it (and bf both boys til over 12 months, but not to natural weaning)

The UK has the lowest breastfeeding rate in Europe which is really sad. We are absolutely pathetic at it and most women do not very on very long at all - I did it for at least a year and my mother in the early 60s breastfed me - she was one of the first NCT members, read Odent etc and I am middle class.

In 1928 as he was more middle class than mother's family my father was fed cow's milk - his family had a cow ear marked at a local farmer which was certified free from TB and he had his milk from there. My mother's family were less well off so all breastfed. By the 50s and 60s natural childbirth etc was taking hold and most women like me then 30 years ago (and now) breastfeed so I have never really known any bottle feeders amazingly and none amongst friends or siblings at all - zero. (I did express milk at work)

I really enjoyed breastfeeding - one of the nicest most pleasant important aspects of my life. I wish I saw more positive articles about it. Very special times.

Not true we have lowest bf rates in Europe - France is lower for one example, and they bf for less time than us. We are about average, IIRC.

Chinese in the UK breastfeed with 97 per cent initiation - I gather it is not so much the case in China and Hong Kong these days.

Figures come from Infant Feeding Survey.

www.hscic.gov.uk/catalogue/PUB08694/ifs-uk-2010-chap2-inc-prev-dur.pdf

I think it's important to remember that those on a lower income can claim milk vouchers to help with the cost of formula. Perhaps that plays a part in ff too as it's essentially free if you earn less the £16,500 I think it is.

Yes the stats seem to back up my experience working (in healthcare) in a poor working class area. My white patients rarely consider starting to breast feed (with a few notable exceptions) and my eastern european and aftrican patients almost all do (extended as well despite often working). The few more middle class patients tend to start. In this area it is unusual to see anyone breastfeeding in public. Saying bf is cheaper is not really true as as someone else pointed out the properly poor get milk vouchers.

More generalisations coming up- apologies in advance. I agree that working class Dads are often very hands on and keen to help with feeding (and also don't take paternity leave if they have work as they can't afford it however many of the Dads here are unemployed). However it's not just the Dad who can help- the families here are close knit and as most women have their children in their early 20s the grans and great grans (and granddads) are usually around, keen to help and a big influence. Generally they also ff. It seem that much of the UK population switched to ff in the ? 60s and then in many areas it just stuck?

Final point - other than local culture I think midwives (here) are both a barrier and support to breast feeding Mums. A barrier because the insistence that it should be pain free and not difficult means that the women who do start often say to me that they 'had to stop after 2-3 days' because of pain or no milk. This to me implies a lack of understanding about what will happen in the first few days and weeks and because these women know no-one who has successfully breast fed the midwife is a vital source of information. My few white working class patients who have successfully breast fed have had more understanding in advance (or a baby that was in special care baby unit - they are strongly encouraged to express and usually seem to manage and often go on to bf when baby well enough, to me this shows that with the right support and education more women would make the choice).

Sorry for long post but it's something I'm interested in (and quite sad about for where I work)

sorry first paragraph should read white british
(and for the record I don't comment about black or asian british patients because i don't have any!)

Hallloumi out of interest would there be any initiatives where the expertise of those women who BF going back to work etc' was harnessed? As I mentioned above, in my area there's this kind of stereotype that it goes with a certain lifestyle, so this kind of information would be very useful.

JaneParker "We are absolutely pathetic at it" - it is not a test or a sport. Words like 'pathetic' could be very upsetting to someone who couldn't (or chose not to for a perfectly valid reason), especially (on the topic of class) as it could be seen as "my clever middle class friends and I all breastfeed because it's/we're best... but I understand there are some plebs out there who don't and are letting the side down, jolly bad show." Anyone raising a baby safely and feeding him/her enough, whether breast, donated milk or formula, is far from "pathetic".

...Halloumi on a related note I have had remarkably different reactions/advice when HCP think I'm 2nd generation Polish compared to mixed Irish/Asian (also when my husband is there and uses his posh 'work' voice) ... it must be down to what you say, bears it out precisely. In one case it's culture/middle class = will BF, here are the support lines. In the other it's 'bog standard Norf Lahndan' have you considered it plus a lecture (when I cut them off and explain yes I have considered, read up, am a member of NCT etc'...).

argh keeps posting instead of new paragraphing ... it's very interesting to me, as I view myself as middle class (it's just my love of tight clothes, nail art and my accent might confuse some) and of course I know breast milk is most advantageous (and why, being a bookworm and OK with science stuff).
My family all BF but their attitude is "it's cheap and convenient at night and you can always express a bottle or two when baby's older, you don't have to be barefoot in the kitchen" which TBH reassures me 100 x more than leaflets ever could.

I'm working class and formula feed. I'm guessing my working class baby not being able to latch on, even with no TT and nipple shields and all the will in the world from myself, midwives, HCPs - it's all due to the amount of money we mae.

In hindsight, I'm glad I FF to be fair.

I think there is totally a class, age and education divide.
But saying that, I'm early thirties and have a good job as does everyone in my circle of friends. Out of the 7 of us with babies, 2 are breastfeeding (me included). One expressing and the rest on formula. I really and truly believe that the friends using formula, who wanted to bf , didn't get the help or information they needed. I keep hearing 'I wasn't making enough milk' as the reason they stopped at day 3.... Just not possible really is it? (For most people)
Lack of education on all levels and a perception that it is harder than formula feeding. I don't believe that to be true. Feeding a baby, however you decide to do it, is a never ending task.

I'm working class and formula feed. I'm guessing my working class baby not being able to latch on, even with no TT and nipple shields and all the will in the world from myself, midwives, HCPs - it's all due to the amount of money we mae.

If you listen to some round my way... yeah they would believe that and not a scrap of sarcasm, just ooozing smugness. I've even had my nails brought into it (incompatible with BFing because they're chavvy, never quite got to the medical link...).
I don't know if it's a North London caricature though... I bloody hope so.

squizita- I'm not aware of any initiatives like you mention. I'm on mat leave at the moment but having now experienced breastfeeding (and fortunately found it easy) I will look into what we have locally when I go back to work. I do think the negative publicity about pain etc puts people off- obviously some women have a terrible time but it can go really well (and then I do agree it's easier than bottle feeding except that unless you can express and baby will take a bottle no-one else can feed your baby - a big deal for some women for very valid reasons).

Mouthful - the stopping at day 3 I think is the saddest outcome as I agree it suggests big lack of understanding and support. you would think that this group of women would be the easiest to help. I have no idea how to help families who wouldn't consider bf consider starting in the first place as because of all the class/cultural stuff people are already defensive.

not that I think there is anything wring with making an informed choice not to try it's just that I don't think for my particular patient group it is a truly informed choice.

One thing I have noticed in contrast to some previous posters' observations is that more affluent people seem more likely to use second hand equipment/clothes either bought second hand or passed on from friends/relatives etc. Whereas less affluent people seem to buy everything new, and in my experience these people are the ones with the Bugaboo whereas paradoxically the people who I suspect have more money have the second hand stuff. Not sure if this has any bearing on feeding though.

PS I agree about the early stopping by people who really do want to continue - while I know some people do genuinely have significant and difficult to resolve problems I can't believe this applies to everyone who would have continued but stops in the first week or two. It does seem to be very common to have worries about baby's weight loss/gain which perhaps has a demoralising effect - just about everyone I know who breastfed, including myself, had weeks of very frequent weigh-ins at the beginning and lots of worrying about weight and therefore success or otherwise of feeding. Again, I know sometimes there is a genuine concern about the baby's weight and it is important to monitor closely but perhaps there is an overcautious approach to this?

Imeg I agree, I think a lot of health visitors/midwives are overcautious. I have just had my baby in Canada and here it is assumed that everyone will start breast feeding, seek out (high quality) support if they need it and if not you're left to your own devices - so the message seems to be 'you will start breast feeding, probably find it goes well, your baby will be fine and if they aren't you will know (and not need a health professional to tell you).' Now I'm in a fairly affluent area so it may well be different in less well off parts but the Canadians I've discussed it with are shocked that we have such as class/cultural divide when it comes to breast feeding in the UK.

I agree it's particularly sad that there are many women who wanted to continue BFing but stopped after only a few days, in many cases for reasons that could have been fixed.

Growth spurts, cluster feeding and uneven weight gain are misunderstood as lack of milk. Latching help is difficult to come by. Tongue tie is not looked for or mistakenly ruled out. Topping up with formula is suggested far too readily by some HVs, leading to genuine supply problems.

I said lowest in Europe. It sounds like one of the lowest is instead correct www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-13/britain-pays-mothers-to-breastfeed/5087806

janet we are about average in Europe. It depends how you slice the stats - initiation, exclusivity, length of time breastfeeding - and not all countries collect their figures as accurately as we do. Each country has its own cultural and social factors at play.

The UK figures have gradually risen over the past couple of decades.

jane, sorry! not Janet.