Help me work out a plan for breastfeeding DC2 (please!)

[Zara8]

I am currently pregnant with DC2. I hope to breastfeed, even though it was an unmitigated disaster with DS 2 years ago (flat out refusal to latch, would not learn, me panicking, zero support from hospital, shit advice from IBCLC). Was v grateful for the support I received on MN.

My current plan is:

• see how it goes for first few days. If there is similar refusal to latch, switch to FF
• if there are less fundamental latch problems, see how things go for 2 weeks. Supplement with formula as necessary to keep baby fed if there's problems (I don't want to express full time like I did with DS, I found it miserable even with a hospital grade pump), but hopefully EBF.
• anything beyond 2 weeks is gravy! Reassess at 6 weeks, I suppose.
• take my BrestFriend cushion into hospital
• visit my local bf groups before birth. Hospital midwives are supposed to be giving me a "what to expect" tutorial after I complained at being left to it with no help last time. TBH I question the helpfulness of any pre-birth "tutorials" as you really need hands on help when baby is here.

Errrr.... That's it. Does that sounds sensible? The only book I'm planning on reading is that Bryam-Cook one. I threw Womanly Art at the wall in tears when DS was newborn as I found to be of zero help with serious bf problems... Load of waffly shite. Kellymom and MN way better!

Attending same over stretched hospital so not expecting much help on the ward, hopefully I am in a fit state to forcefully demand it this time. Although I did make a big complaint that went all the way to the top so perhaps I'm marked as a troublemaker somewhere....

Basically if it's not mostly working fairly quickly I don't see how I can carry on with it given I have DS as well (we will have family staying with us for the first month to help out).

... But I am trying to be optimistic and hoping for the best!

Aim low, shoot high etc...

Don't want to get my expectations up too high as I know it is all so dependent on the baby, kind of birth you have etc.

AIBU to hope for less grimness this time? A baby that actually wants to breastfeed and doesn't just scream at my boob?

Don't read the Byam Cook one. Lots of misinformation in there. Not sure about non waffly books, though, unfortunately. Is it feasible to just rely on MN and kellymom? I'm not sure any book will go into enough detail for unusual/serious problems.

Do you have money to throw at the problem? Could you hire perhaps a postnatal doula who has training in breastfeeding support?

Was your baby checked for tongue tie last time?

Yes I can hire a postnatal doula. I have a variety of contacts (about 12+ phone numbers of breastfeeding counsellors, support workers etc). I am supposed to be getting home visits from midwives too.

Yes DS was checked for tongue tie (2-3 times). The few times he did latch in the 2 weeks before we switched to FF, his latch was perfect, no problems feeding etc.

My boobs are quite large (G+) and not very pointy-outy like many of my friends who have successfully bf. I know in theory this shouldn't make a difference but DS just couldn't seem to get his mouth on, even with hamburger-boob squishing and different holds.

Midwives and lactation consultant had no answer as to why he wouldn't feed. I am prepared for the same thing to happen again - wondering at what point do you give up with a non-latching baby when you have an older child to care for too?

Hmm. Personal decision I guess? I suppose if you've got all you can throw at it in terms of support that's all you can realistically do. There are palate issues which affect latch, not only tongue tie but it would be worth finding someone, if at all possible, who knows about these kind of issues. It's odd that he would have latched correctly but then stopped being able to. I've heard stories where an over zealous midwife (etc) has tried to force a latch and it's put the baby off but I think that's rare.

Books I've done a bit of searching, Ina May Gaskin looks good, she's very good on birth type stuff and her book doesn't look so flowery. There's also this from LLL: Positioning and Attachment I find La Leche League good most of the time, their leaflets etc are more to the point, Womanly Art is a bit waffly.

One thing you might want to look up before the birth is Biological Nurturing and also the Breast Crawl which is basically where you let them find their own attachment, the videos of it are quite amazing, even tiny newborns can find their own way to the breast if left to it and it often works when there are problems latching.

I have no advice but just wanted to wish you luck, plan for the worst and hope for the best!. My first two dc were formula fed after latch refusal and milk not coming in, so i got the bottles and the formula ready for dc3 just incase, 12 weeks later they are all still in the cupboard, dc3 has taken to breast feeding like a duck to water. Pleased and chuffed with myself is an understatement, good luck!

Thanks Bertie! I will look at vids of biological nursing, indeed. It was certainly one of the things recommended with DS, but he would bob his head/arch/cry when I tried to do it with him. Like he knew he was supposed to find the breast but didn't know what to do. It was really perplexing. DMIL (an ex-LLL leader) was certainly guilty of trying to force his head onto the boob, but she was just trying her best and had never seen a non-latching baby before.

In hindsight I should've pulled back from trying to get him on the breast at each feed, as he became upset so quickly. I should've just tried once or twice a day in the bath/in bed etc.

Cathpip thank you so much! I am so pleased it's going well for you this time! Could I ask, was it immediately obvious with DC2 that the same thing was happening - when did you stop trying to bf?

Unlike last time there will definitely be formula and bottles in the house in advance...

I know all babies in theory will latch by 6 weeks etc but I simply cannot put myself through full time expressing for that long. I found it godawful.

At the first sign of "same shit, different baby" I am throwing in the towel. But then I worry that means I'd give up too soon.... Argh.

Feel a but silly even worrying about this. I had a full-term baby with no health problems (except meconium aspiration & CPR at birth, but he was fine). But it would be very nice to be able to breastfeed this baby! And it not working was devastating at the time, took me months to recover.

Also Bertie - interesting about the palate things that can also affect feeding. No idea who in my area would know about this. Will try and investigate!

Do t over think it. Don't think you can plan for these things. Try it, seek help if not working well, then decide. Goodluck.

No real advice but wanted to wish you lots of luck! I had a very similar experience with my baby - meconium at birth, refusal to latch, no tongue tie.. I ended up exclusively expressing for four months which nearly broke me.

I often wonder what would happen if we had another baby. This blog post might help: motherblogginguilt.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/shes-off-her-tts.html?m=1

Enjoy your baby when s/he arrives!

Hi OP. I had a similar disaster with DD. DC2 due in Aug.

What about nipple shields? DD could latch with them but not without. I used the Medela ones.

I'm in the same boat too. With DD I was pretty relaxed (for the first 2 weeks anyway) did lots of skin to skin but definitely didn't overdo trying to get her on. I tried everything (including nipple shields) except a SNS. I really think a SNS might have worked eventually even if using formula in it. I felt guilty as I exclusively expressed for 2 months and spoonfed to avoid nipple confusion, but at the end she started latching it wasn't a good latch (painful as pinching the nipple) so I had to keep taking her off. At that point I really couldn't be doing with expressing and spoonfeeding so I gave her a bottle and started topping up with formula. Of course the latch disappeared immediately and I just gave up trying.

I am going to try expressing and storing colostrum from about 34 weeks to give some breathing space in the first week hopefully in case things don't go well. This time i would however be quicker to top up with formula as I really wasn't producing enough milk by pumping and at one point she was dehydrated.

Second the person saying don't bother with Clare by am
Cook. Overly com

Sorry didn't finish. Don't bother with Clare byam cook. It's overly complex. Makes breastfeeding seem scary and impossible plus her tone is very bossy. Also as the other poster said loads of miss info. Instead I'd highly recommend 'the food of love' by Kate evans which is also hilarious! Other tips, I know it's hard considering your earlier experience but try to stay positive. Believe you can and will manage it and that will help. Also I highly recommend groups run by peer supporters - up to date practical advice from someone actually breastfeeding a baby!

Whereabouts are you in the country roughly? You might be able to find a referral on here or I can give you details of someone in I think Northampton (?) and someone else on the South coast. There's also Milk Matters in Yorkshire and London.

Food of love is okay and good for reassurance but probably not much info on problems, plus I think it has lots of extra info e.g. on co sleeping and how great it is etc. Fine if you want to do that but OP already has a child and I don't think (?) is looking for a whole parenting philosophy guide.

I think concentrate on making BF relaxed and stress free. If it's not working immediately then don't stress about trying to make it work, offer formula, and go with the calm skin to skin, biological nurturing approach.

BTW, the LLL "book" I linked to is actually just a booklet, very short for £3 and only on kindle. You can get the same publication in print form from your local branch or they'll send it by post I think, cheaper than the kindle version and probably easier to access.

I found with ds 2 the milk came in much more, lactation consultant said that's common with 2nd babies, so that could make things a little easier.

You're definitely doing the right thing planning in advance. A woman used to come to our bf cafe every week when she was pregnant so when her time came to bf she was very confident about it all.

My 2 dc are only 18 mths apart but it was amazing the difference in bf advice I got with ds2. I went to a top notch lactation consultant before and after the birth, and that really helped. Hospital were beyond dreadful.

I think you're definitely doing the right thing, and I agree with not putting yourself through anything if its not going well. I said categorically that I wasn't expressing with ds2. I knew formula wouldn't kill him, and it would save my sanity. You are the most important person in your growing family, so you can't run yourself ragged this time round.
Good luck with it all!!

Thank you all so much for your wonderfully helpful posts, and words of encouragement. I really appreciate them!

With my son, we tried nipple shields (every brand and size), a SNS, the works. No dice. It was all so weird because on the occasions (about 6 in total, over a 2 week period) he would latch, there was no problem.

I've read that blog post (very funny and gave me shivers because so much resonated with my experience), and I've downloaded the v helpful LLL pamphlet Bertie linked to. I will get out a few of the mentioned bf books from the library and have a quick flick through ahead of time. However I definitely think demanding real-life midwife and LC support, Kellymom and MN will be better. MN was there in the hours after DS was born and I couldn't get a midwife to come to my bed and DH had been sent home.... Whereas the Ina May book (though practical) was like reading an Airbus instruction manual given I had a baby who just refused to accept boob!

I am trying to stay (realistically) positive. I have been really encouraged in the last month by my good friend who had her second baby last month (similar BF misery to me first time, with added joy of shredded nipples). She has big boobs like me and nipples that don't point out lots easily either (ie like my espresso cup saucer nipples - not flat, but not very pointy either). Her DS2 just latched on in recovery (she had ELCS) and she was astounded. I visited her in the evenings she was in hospital and I was just shocked to see this tiny baby open his mouth, grab a mouthful of nipple, and happily suck away. My friend was like "I know, right?! WTF." Really hit it home for us once and for all that we had been in a lose-lose situation with our first babies. She let me stay and observe the midwives showing her different holds, which was very helpful for me. Aside from a bit of chafing that was solved by a tube of Lansinoh I bought her, she's had no problems. She keeps saying everything will be fine this time for me too but it's really the case of once bitten, twice shy for me!

I think the best approach is indeed to try and make things as non-stressful and calm as possible with bf. Not scared this time of offering formula if not immediately working quite well - by that I mean baby attaching to breast and extracting milk from boob (proven by result of nappies). My only hard line is on expressing. Unless I find myself in the situation of having a premature baby in NICU who needs expressed milk, Mr Breastpump will not be making an appearance.

I will be attending my local bf groups when I'm about 36 weeks +. I will be definitely finding a lactation consultant for a visit (not the unhelpful one from last time) before and after birth too. And then just.... See what happens.

I had two very different breastfeeding experiences so you might not have the same issues twice. DD fed like a trooper for seven months, no issues whatsoever other than her wanting to bepermanently attached. DS was just not good from the start, I was badly anaemic etc and he was fully FF from two weeks.

If you are in North/ west London I can recommend a lactation consultant - she's practically famous among the mums!

Elizabeth, Bertie - I'm in Ireland. The pool of LCs much smaller here, but I will find one (not going back to the same rubbish one I had last time!). Another friend was seen by a HV/public health nurse who recently did IBCLC training, who was quite good, so I might get in touch with her.

Update to those interested - DD was born on Monday. Feeding going really well so far, I can hardly believe it. She has a good latch and is very keen to feed. Early days yet (milk in today) but already we have had more success than my DS and I ever did.

Thank you to all those who posted with advice, it was so incredibly helpful to my mental and emotional preparation.

Definitely helped to have my support network in place ahead of time and to mentally prepare myself for the worst, but hope for the best. Good state of mind on my part (ie not freaking out... She won't starve, we have backup plans etc) and a co-operative baby are the main factors here I think. Have my lactation consultant coming out tonight and am just taking things one feed at a time. And resting and staying in bed with DD as much as possible (grandparents, DH and nursery helping out with my DS, making sure I have special time with him each day though).

Posting to give hope and encouragement to others who experienced latch/non-feeding hell and panic that things CAN be massively different second time round.

Zara - that's great to hear. My situation with DS1 is so similar to yours and I am due DS2 any day now. DS1 just never latched either and I have no idea why - do you think it's going better this time for any specific reason or just different baby so different experience? What support did you get after the birth this time? I got practically zero last time and am prepared to be demanding but need to know what will help!!!

Hi gozer

Hard to pinpoint exactly what's made things so much better but big factors I think are (1) DD wants to latch and is good at opening her mouth very wide to accomodate my big nipples/boob and (2) better postnatal support (3) I'm much much calmer and not panicking (because of the first two things, and because I'm a second timer!)

The first of those is personality based mainly, I'm sure, BUT delivery was much easier and very straightforward with DD and she didn't need any suctioning like DS did. However that's just luck of the draw - was no option other than DS being suctioned because of meconium.

Postnatal support - I had complained to the hospital about my crap care and warned them in advance that I was coming back. But my husband was v vocal about getting help for me while I was in - only 8 hours or so as I went home same day. Also have had v experienced lactation consultant on call to visit me at home - if you can afford it, get the best and most experienced one you can find. My one trains the HVs and teaches lactation courses. Ironically she is cheaper than the crap one I had with my son! LC has been invaluable for helping me to fine tune my latch and to just be there to listen - my weepiness/baby blues so far has only been in relation to feeling sad/bad that things were so awful last time, because it's been brilliant this time.

Mental prep - this was the biggest thing for me. Plan for the worst and hope for the best has been my motto. I honestly didn't think bf would work this time, but I tried to be as optimistic as possible. I was too scared of getting my hopes up. But I also had pre-made newborn formula kit, new pack of bottles and my steriliser etc out and ready to go. Knowing how to make bottles and being confident we had a back up plan was helpful. I approached it all as being equally likely that baby would need bottles as would be bf, and this helped minimise making bf "a big deal" and minimised me putting pressure on myself to get it right. I feel reassured doing the (copious) night feeds that I can see the wee aptamil box on the change cabinet at the other side of the room ie if we get stuck, we've got options. She won't starve. I won't panic because I don't need to rush out in the middle of the night to buy anything - I have boobs and I have ready made bottles - she'll get fed.

Also on support - I am v lucky to have PILs staying for a month to help with my DS, and DH has taken 2 weeks off work. DS also still going to nursery for up to 3 days a week. Knowing he's ok lets me focus on resting and establishing bf. My plan until the middle of next week is to just stay in bed, eat and drink well, look after myself mentally and emotionally and remind myself I'm doing a great job. So would really recommend begging /bribing whatever family support you can get, or if you can afford it a cleaner/maternity nurse to support you/ a baby sitter to mind you older child for a few hours a week for the first week at least. And put no pressure on yourself to be up and about for the first ten days. My LC told me to rest as much as possible before and after delivery - you can sort of bank sleep and this has hugely helped. I had a nap every day in late pregnancy during my son's nap and I also went to bed early.

GOOD LUCK . Remember even if the outcome is the same (bf doesn't end up working) the experience will probably be much better because you've been through the ringer before. You're battle hardened! Be very kind to yourself

While in hospital RING THE BUZZER to get help with all/most of your feeds. Do not just struggle on and hope someone will come and see you. And tell your delivery mw/mw who checks you in on the ward that you had a crap time first time round and you REALLY need help