Need Advice for On Demand Feeding Please

[yellowbrightsummer]

Hello mums. Apologize for my very long message. I'm desperate for advice plssss.

My baby is 12weeks old now and I've been feeding him on a loose schedule 8 times per 24 hours all these time.
(7am, 9:30am, 12pm, 3pm, 5:30pm, 7:30pm , 00:00, 4am>

To give you a brief background, he was born in good weight at 3.6kg. But we struggled a lot on breastfeeding at the beginning and his weight wasn't progress that much for the first 4 weeks. On week 8, he was only 4.5kg and everyone is telling me how small he is. He's weight started to progress along the 9th percentile from week 5 to 8. And I'm still really worry that he's being too small... he can still fit in his newborn clothes :(

I went to the bf group a few weeks ago and was adviced to stop waking him up at night, but should feed him when he wakes up and demand it. I was also told to still fit the rest of the feeding during the day, so still keep feeding him 8 times in 24 hours. And that I've been really struggling to do. He is sleeping well at night. Sometimes for a good 5 hours stretch. The problem is, I keep finding myself waking him up for a feed from his daytime naps (which I spent long time to get him to sleep). And then, he'll usually fall asleep on my breast and the feeding sometimes takes a whole hour. He's only getting around 10-11hours sleep per day which is really a lot less than the recommended 13-16 hours for his age. So I'm also concern that this will affect his development.

I've been talking to more moms and everyone thinks that I should just drop the schedule and feed him on demand. I've been now trying that for 3 days, and I feel more stressful than ever. I feel I fail to read my baby's hunger cue. He's sucking his fingers all the time and I know for sure that he does that when he's sleepy too. I feel he just want to sleep all the time. I also feel very uncomfortable as I found myself only feeding him 6 times a day now which I am still waking him up sometimes from his day time naps.

I just feel I am at loss of what I'm doing. Surely if I'm concern of his weight I shouldn't be feeding him less, right? I did a yield test and I only got less than 4oz expressed milk from both full breast. If on average baby at his age is taking 25 oz per day, I should still be feeding him 8 times with my amount of milk supply right?

Sorry again for my very long message. I just don't know what I should do and how to do it. I'm going to the HV later this week to weight him again, and stress is really building up on me.

Please help. Thank you x

Sorry I don't have any advice re feeding but I do know that what amount you can express has no relation to the amount your baby gets when feeding.
I bf my DD and tried expressing but was lucky to get 1oz at a time. I fed her on demand exclusively for 6 months and continued feeding till she was 18 months so I know she was getting more than 1oz a feed!

Oh bless you. It's awfully hard to know what to do isn't it with your first? You sound like an absolutely lovely mum and you've done fab to get him through to 12 weeks on breastfeeding when you've struggled. Well done you.

The things that come to mind for me are:

Ignore what you express. He is far better at getting the milk out than you are Ignore what an average baby will take or indeed what an average baby will weigh and don't worry about how long he is sleeping compared to how long he 'should' sleep. I just don't think those issues are very helpful to you.

If you have the time to sit with him it's not a problem for him to sleepily feed for an hour. My oldest used to take an hour to feed every time until she got to about 3 months when she did speed up. If you are offering him a feed throughout the day and the night IF he wakes then you are feeding him enough. You know your breasts are full because you can feel that. Try not to count or worry over it and if anybody asks you how often he's fed then simply say you are feeding him through the day as needed.

I would also think about not weighing him for a few more weeks. Weighing regularly causes a lot of anxiety and isn't necessarily helpful. An unwell child needs to be seen but it doesn't sound like that's a concern? He's just quite a dainty chap who feeds well and sleeps well at night. Good job from you!

yellow, so sorry you are feeling confused.

First off, there is no such thing as a 'yield test' - no one sensible who understands about breastfeeding would or should ever tell a mother that expressing gives anything other than a misleading view of what she makes and what the baby takes in. So express by all means if you want to - but NOT reapeat not to give yourself any remote idea of useful information let alone to help you calculate how many times your baby ought to feed.

Secondly, I think it will help you to stop talking to other people about what you ought to do. I don't think the be support group sounds helpful, either.

Instead, find someone really knowledgeable and supportive and discuss with them all your options. This could be a bfc on a bf helpline, or an HCP you trust.

It sounds to me that you should not be feeding your baby less. He needs frequent feeding, as do most babies of this age.

But more than that, I think you need someone to listen to you, and not tell you what to do.

You sound wonderful! I found breastfeeding so hard.

My only advice would be to not wake for a feed, especially at night. I worked to a loose 3 hour schedule until dd was maybe 4 months, then 4 hours. But only as guidance! Trust yourself a bit more

It's so stressful this feeding thing isn't it. We also had weight/demandissues at the start so I know exactly how stressful this is.

Firstly, it sounds like you're doing great! You sound very stressed in your post which is understandable. However I think you may be being a little over anxious.

Firstly, Baby's love to stick their fists/fingers in their mouths, it's part of their normal development. I wouldn't worry about this being a feeding cue.

Secondly, the amount you can pump doesn't correlate with the amount your baby feeds directly from you. I wouldn't do a yield test personally. You might be able to get 4oz but baby may be able to get much more.

Personally I thin the best thing you could do would be to forget about the feeding schedule, feed him when he wants (ignoring the finger in mouth thing), and just let him feed/sleep when he wants. Don't wake him to feed, however tempting.

Relax and Trust yourself and your baby

The long feeds won't last forever... Babies suddenly get a lot more efficient at about 4 months old and everything suddenly gets easier. If you are concerned about weight gain, I would keep waking him at night. Bf babies are designed to feed frequently because breast milk is easier to digest, and it boosts your supply.
It sounds as though you have quite a sleepy baby. When he starts drifting off to sleep then you could try breast compressions where you give your boob a gentle squeeze. This 'speed up' the flow and may encourage him to feed a bit quicker.

Thanks mouselittle.
I don't disagree with you. I have to admit that I was too anxious when decided to do the yield test "for reference only".... and it did actually stressed me out even more

On feeding on demand, I just don't understand how come we seems to feed babies less number of time when they grow older? I know that they'll learn to suck more efficent and all that, but for my case.... my baby was still taking 8 times a day 3 days ago on schedule, how can I be sure he's still getting enough now taking 6 feeds on demand?

Great advice so far - I can only echo it that what tyou express bears no relation to what your baby gets. Have you tried calling the La Leche League helpline, or seeing if there's a meeting near you?

I know how demoralising it can feel when you think you're not producing enough milk, but I can honestly say that the likelihood is that you ARE producing enough milk - you just have a frequent feeder who gains weight slowly. My boy often fed for up to an hour at that stage - it's soooo tiring, and I really do sympathise.

Your body is designed to feed him enough OP. I know it's hard to relax in to that in a modern world where there is a system and a schedule for everything but the bottom line is that a well nourished mother who is supported to feed her baby as the baby demands WILL be feeding him enough.

They really do get better at feeding as they get older, quicker and more effective.

Because your baby can get out as much milk as he needs. Those other two feeds he had May well have just been 'snacks' because he didn't need them and you have no way of knowing how much or how little your baby can take. My dd has had a few sucks on the boob and completely emptied it and other times will be on there for ages and it still feels full after. I trust that she will take what she needs.
Is your lo putting on weight? It may be that the ninth centile is where he is supposed to be.
I wouldn't wake up your baby unless it's 4 hours between feeds in the day and I wouldn't wake at night unless you feel uncomfortable. I fed dd very regularly when she was little but as she got older I let her 'demand' more and let her sleep even if she was 'due' a feed. You're doing fab.

I think it's important to remember with centiles that it doesn't mean your baby is underweight. Some babies will be smaller, some much larger. It's a range, it's not a pass or fail issue.

Everyone has already given some great advice, but imagine if it was you, and you were being given a meal every 4 hours. Sometimes you'd be hungrier than other times, sometimes you might not fancy it yet etc. If you were allowed to pick your own mealtimes, you might just have bigger meals 3 times a day rather than little meals 6 times a day.

The baby isn't that different - if he's only feeding 6 times, and he's not hungry to eat when offered at other times, then he's probably just eating more in those 6 meals.

And just one more voice - I've bfed both of mine, both average sized babies throughout, and for my first I could barely express a drop. Even for my second, I couldn't express as much as 4oz in one go - I'm just not a good milker :) really don't worry about the expressing, it's totally different from a baby.

Thanks all moms for the useful advice!!
It really makes me feel so much better after reading your posts

I think my biggest worry now is, since my baby was taking 8 times feeding on schedule and never showed a sign of he's having too much (actually he's always very keen to start even sometimes he'll fall asleep after five mins)... now how can I be confident that he's still taking enough letting him switch to do on demand and getting 6 fed per day?

I don't actually feel that he is now hungrier and taking more for each feed.

And yes, good idea. I am going to try the LLL helpline too. Thanks a million :)

Hi OP - my advice is trust your body and trust your baby - between them things will work out.

My DS is 11 weeks old and I have long since stopped waking him for feeds. In the first few weeks he was feeding 12-13 times in 24 hours, this then dropped to 8-10 times over the next few weeks and now he averages at 6 feeds a day. At night he can sometimes go 9 hours without a feed.

If your baby is healthy and gaining weight well then just follow your baby's lead. He will tell you when he's hungry if he's happy and settled after his feeds then it means he's had enough.

When he was a new baby DS would feed for 20-30 minutes but now it is usually 5-10 minutes - they get much more efficient at feeding as they get bigger. As long as he's having lots if wet nappies then you know he's getting enough.

Offer both breasts at each feed but otherwise, just be led by him.

I'm going to disagree with everyone and say if you and your baby were both happy with a schedule, and you feel more relaxed/confident that way, then there's no problem with sticking with it.

With both my babies I've done a mix of baby-led and me-led - feeding whenever they asked but also offering regularly (at least every 3 hours) and feeding when I go to bed at night too. Plus feeding when it is convenient for me (eg. before getting in the car or the school run).

Hi there.

So I've spoken to a very very nice lady on the La Leche League helpline this morning. And she's made a very good point...

Basically, she said I've been too caught up with there terms...on demand / schedule led feeding..etc.

In fact, in most cases it's not that black or white. Lots of moms claiming themselves feeding on demand actually will offer to their babies when they are not demanding, or feed them early or later to fit in what they need to do on the day. And for other moms choose to follow a schedule, most of them are following it loosely and of cos they will still feed their babies when they spot the hunger cue.

Do you think that's what you've been doing too? I am myself on a loose schedule and I know I'll feed my baby if he shows that he's hungry.... but I haven't been very good at reading his hunger cue tho. Or maybe now I'm feeding him 8 times is very enough for him?

The thing is eventually he'll need to be fed less number of time when he grow older, and if I'm on schedule, I'm not sure I will know when I can start to feed him less. He is always happy to take the feed when I offer even when he's sleepy and will fall asleep a few minutes after latch onto the breast. So it does seems he's happy with 8 times a day?

But when I'm trying this on demand feeding these few days, he seems he only need it 6 times. In fact, some of that 6 times, I am still offering him first. I just don't have the nerve to wait until he shows me that his hungry for fear that he's eating even less. Because afterall, I'm trying all these things cos I want him to sleep better and eat well to gain more weight.

If he's happy to take a feed when you offer, then that's all good isn't it? What kind of "hunger cues" are you looking for?

With both mine I offered a breast as soon as they start grumbling - if they are hungry or tired or upset they will usually take it. If they don't want a breast then there is probably a different issue - nappy change, clothes rubbing, bored.

You can't over feed your baby - if you offer a feed and he doesn't want it he won't take it.

Oh, and with my oldest he never fed less frequently really until he was on solid food and 3 meals a day.

The thing you need to be careful of is that you are saying your baby is falling asleep after 5 minutes of feeding. If this is the case then it may be that your baby is getting the fore milk but not the hind milk which is what contains all the calories. If your baby is not getting enough of the hind milk due to short feeding then he will not put on weight very well. I'm not saying this is the case with your baby but it's just something to take into consideration.

Fewer but longer feeds is preferable over regular 'snacking' to ensure the baby is getting enough of the calorific milk.

If he's falling asleep pretty soon after the latch then it implies he's probably not hungry so there was little point attaching him in the first place. It may be that in those circumstances he isn't feeding and is just using you as a comfort.

Does he feed for longer when he is only having 6 feeds a day or will he still fall asleep quickly?

I find that when I only feed DS when he is hungry and asking for it he will have a very good feed. If I give him a feed for my own convenience (I.e if I'm going out) then he has a very half hearted feed. Pretty much like we don't eat much if we aren't hungry, nor will babies. Just because we offer them the breast and they take it, that doesn't necessarily mean they are going to have a proper feed from it.

Like I said, all this is speculation I'm not saying any of applies to your circumstances at all but just a few points to think about.

That's not exactly true Writer - foremilk is the milk from a full breast, so longer gaps between feeds can mean more watery milk. Hindmilk is higher fat milk from empty breasts, so frequent feeds can mean higher fat content.

There's no problem with "snacking", comfort feeding or feeding to sleep.

Here, this might explain the issue with fat content Writer - kellymom.com/nutrition/milk/change-milkfat/

The amount of fat isn't really a consideration for weight gain, it's the volume of milk consumed overall. Frequent feeding is what improves weight gain, not making the baby have fewer feeds or stay on the "get to the hindmilk".

Then I stand corrected. I best start feeding mine more often then!

Unless your baby has a weight gain problem, there is no need to change anything.

Up until last week he was weighed weekly due to poor weight gain at birth and prolonged jaundice (he was jaundiced until he was 8 weeks old) and he usually puts on between 8-10oz a week.

I was only saying it in good humour, Lord knows I couldn't cope with regular overnight feeds again

"Fewer but longer feeds is preferable over regular 'snacking' to ensure the baby is getting enough of the calorific milk." fleder was right to point out that this is really not the case...in fact the opposite is true!

It's volume that puts the weight on, and frequency that determines volume. Snacking is absolutely fine, as long as the baby is removing milk effectively.

A five minute feed can be just right for some babies.

Heavens, a 2-minute feed can be fine for some babies!

Typically, the quick feeders have other feeds which are long and luxurious anyway :)