It's more complicated that breast or bottle isn't it?

[LaDiDaDi]

The deleted thread just got me thinking about the different ways you could group mum's according to how they are feeding:

1. Breastfeeding with brilliant ease and tell everyuone and anyone how fab it is and how rubbish formula is.

2. Breastfeeding happily and successfully with encouragement to other mums to do the same.

3. Persevering with breastfeeding despite problems either personal or physical.

4. Breastfeeding unhappily out of peer pressure.

5. Mix feeding out of personal choice.

6. Mix feeding because of circumstance.

7. Formula feeding and sad after having tried to breastfeed.

8. Formula feeding and relieved/happy after having tried to breastfeed as had never felt positively about breastfeeding in the first place.

9. Formula feeding having never wanted/tried to breastfeed and happy with their choice.

10. Formula feeding and making annoying negative comments to mum's who do breastfeed.

Can anyone think of anymore?
I suppose I'm just trying to make the point that breastfeeders and formulafeeders are all different.

Message withdrawn

(Would just like to apologise for that thread again).

Yes, it's more complicated - emotional minefield.

I think there's probably one more bfeeding one I can think of:

3a. Overcoming problems in the early weeks to go on to bfeed successfully and encourage other women to do the same.

Message withdrawn

You could group mums lots of ways I guess but I think perhaps that 1-10 list (though a good starting point) implies a one-dimensional spectrum when it's a lot more complicated... I don't think for instance that negative comments about breastfeeding necessarily come from the people who are happiest formula feeding, quite the reverse in some cases. Similarly you get mums who had truly hellish times breastfeeding (i.e. 3) but got past it, and who have strong opinions about its value (i.e. the last part of no. 1) but who don't tell 'everyone and anyone' that but can see the whole issue as complicated and needing tact... so am agreeing with the 3a there really!

Also, you get people who are extremely convinced that breastfeeding is valuable and formula has risks, but who don't enjoy breastfeeding and haven't ever found it easy - i.e. they're breastfeeding 'unhappily', but not out of peer pressure, rather because they feel an obligation to their child. Also there are people who've had to formula feed but who have equally strong feelings about the value of breastfeeding and would share that opinion - again not necessarily in a blindly evangelical way but in a tactful way, but still quite definitely.

Oh and then there are the people who don't see that much benefit to breastfeeding but happen to have found it a breeze, and who've never really needed to struggle or to get their heads round the complicated factors affecting how other people manage or don't manage to breastfeed, and so don't really believe in those complicated factors or the need for any kind of effort to help breastfeeding.
They can actually make quite negative comments about breastfeeding and other breastfeeding mums they see as too 'out there' because they're no more convinced that breastfeeding is worth fighting for than some formula feeding mums are.

So I'd say you need at least separate dimensions for basic opinions about the value of breastfeeding and experiences of trying it... and in fact there are probably about 100 groups on about five dimensions... eek!

That should say 'some formula-feeding-by-choice mums' near the end... meaning that there's a group of people who see breastfeeding as having some value but not that much, and that group includes both BF-easily and FF-by-choice mums. Whereas another group, of people who see breastfeeding as worth fighting very hard for, will more commonly contain both BF-despite-a-hellish-struggle and FF-not-by-choice mums. Attitudes to BF don't line up neatly with what people actually do, I mean.

what thread has been deleted?

One HM started and then requested to have deleted Jools. Nothing major, HM venting and getting misconstrued.

yes, I think it is a common misconception that everyone who is passionate about bf must have taken to it ith "brilliant ease." IME it is just as likely that those people had a really difficult time. I am not really sure what "peer pressure" means in this context, but yes it is certainly a complex issue with lots of cultural aspects.

okey doke - just thought it was odd that there had been a bf/ff scrap I wasn't involved in!

I knew that when my dd was born I would b.feed her. My God did she have problems, she just did
not know how to do it for the first 2 months.

We stuck at it, & suddenly it just clicked. She got the hang of latching on & I got the knack of
putting her in the correct position.

But i'm the most stubborn, I Will not Give Up person & to be honest I think that was to my detrement. DD's first 2 months of life were a living nightmare. I hated feed times & knowing that I was going to have to feed again in an hour (she fed constantly) were awful.

Thankfully we did perserve & she's now 2.3 & still feeding & I think it's one if the greatest things that we have together

I like ff's idea about dimensions.

I picture it something like this:

1. what you think (opinions about bfeeding vs formula feeding)
2. what you feel (eg enjoy it or not, or feel guilty not bfeeding)
3. what you do (bfeed, formula feed or mix feed)
4. what you say (eg how you advise others)

... and they interact with each other in interesting ways as ff describes.

So, I would describe my experience with dd1 like this:

1. think - bf very very important
2. feel - miserable! feeding was painful til she was 4 months, and she fed constantly
3. do - but despite 2. above I bfed her exclusively to 6 months because of 1. above
4. say - am divided between wanting to be very positive to mums ("If I can do it, so can you") at the same time not wanting to make someone feel guilty because they found it hard and stopped. Tricky!

So in my case, no.1 (my opinions about the value of breastfeeding) overrrode no. 2 (my feeling that it was not an enjoyable experience) in determining no.3 (what I actually did), but another person in a similar situation might do it completely differently.

1. what you think - I think that everyone who can physically and emotionally bfeed should be supported to do so. I can't understand people who won't try bfeeding despite no "reason" not to - just don't get it at all. I don't judge them, just isn't a concept I understand. I think that's because I think bfeeding's so important that I don't understand why not everyone shares my opinion!

2. what you feel - I mostly enjoy bfeeding a lot - I love that I have bfed two babies exclusively for just over a year in total and it astounds me that something I can make without thinking about it can make my children chubby and contented - it's like magic. I don't enjoy mastitis - well, who would?!

3. what you do - bfeed, no formula, express when I go back to work, donate bmilk.

4. what you say - I try to be supportive, I make the occasional ill-judged comment but not from malice, just because I don't think things through. I know how important feeding issues are to mothers and I hope that I help more than I hinder or upset!

Agree with your first point HM, can't understand not wanting to try. I know a few people like this and I have had to keep my mouth firmly closed or walk away as I am dying to say 'but why?', but realise it is non of my business.

I went to bed shortly after making my original post last night so have just seen your responses. I like the idea of dimensions.

I think that breastfeeding is very important.

I mostly enjoy breastfeeding, ie the actual act is lovely and cuddly, I feel a little guilty about giving formula.

I mix feed, this started through circumstance but I honestly think that dd would have had the odd bottle of formula no matter what had happened.

I would encourage anyone to breastfeed and try to offer them as much support as I could but with the understanding that sometimes people want to be supported in giving up and that's ok too.

never could get my head around HMs point 1 either. Missed the contraversial deleted post (although I'm sure I can imagine it!). Hunker, point 4, I have certainly had all good advice off you!

I hate breastfeeding

I have always found it uncomfortable to the point of painful, every single damn feed for both of my children which is now over 2 years of feeding, despite having close friends who are bfing counsellors and having loads of great advice

They latch badly, bite, thrash around, blah blah blah. To be blunt I have always hated having my nipples touched (sigh another lovely phrase for the men at FA)

(The exception is night-feeding which has always been reasonably pain-free - I suspect because baby is half-asleep so doesn't have energy for thrashing etc)

But I am so passionate about bfing that I continue and the thought of stopping is REALLY distressing to me because my bfing relationship is such a HUGE part of my relationship with my babies

Another - breast feeding successfully ( no probs with it) but unhappily ( doin it for baby but not happy with being tied down, milk leakage, inability to run as I used to)

yes Anjee

agree with all of that

AND I THINK

this makes me very shallow but

I HATE NOT BEING ABLE TO WEAR A WONDERBRA

Two years with no breasts is VERY depressing when you are feeling like a blob anyway

Some perky breasts would be so cheering

11. exclusively expressing breastmilk and feeding to baby with bottle (did that for 8.5 months)no formula. Thinking it is a personal thing, very personal and has nothing to do with anyone else, including F....ing WHO.

hunker/olive

I did try because of all the right reasons - BUT I knew I didn't want to - you want to know why?

I can't tell you because I don't know, it's like asking me why I like blue instead of pink, I just do.

Thinking about it now (after all the heated debates ) perhaps IF I had had the queen of bf counsellors at the very outset, who knows, I may have been cajoled into persevering, doing it and even enjoying it, but I'm not regretful about it because it was my choice and I was happy with it at the time and I'm happy with that choice now.....

...and, to be perfectly frank, I don't think it's made any difference whatsoever to my 3's health or well-being.

Je regrette riens

I agree with Morningpaper - loathe almost every miniute of it yet am still doing it and ds is 21 months. Almost every day I contemplate stopping but always seem to find a reason not to. The reasons we do things are sometimes so complicted we don't know why ourselves.

I am though that she has the same problem with dc2. I was hoping if I had another things might be easier. Chances are I am not going to have another but I'll be honest and say if I did I am probably one of the few mothers who successfully bfed her first child but who would seriously consider not doing so with her second as I'm not sure I could go through all this again for this long. I would definitely consider mixed feeding if there were a next time.h

One other point is among my friends I was one of the ones who had the hardest time establishing breastfeeding in the early days. Also I was and am still almost completely unable to express milk without a taking so long it is just not worth it. However I am the only one among my friends who breastfed past a year though most of the ones who breastfed did so for a year.

One of my friends was passionate about breastfeeding and wanted to do so for at least 2 years from the beginning (I though she was bonkers and was desperate to get to 6 months and stop) yet she gave up at 4 months. What we think we feel or want is often not as simple as it seems.

reading this with great interest as am bfeeding ds1 who is. 5 weeks (not literally feeding and typing as am not v good at either) and mixed fed dd until 9 months. F*ing hate it. Had thrush with both, never got that comfortable with it afterwards, felt trapped in early months. Think I am laid back parental type who thinks mothers should do what's best for them (happy mum = happy kids) but perservered with dd when even hv said give up. Sosomewhere along line clearly think its v important. Quite like status of being b/feeder ... love idea of it sold by nct etc - never feels like it in real life. Also husband was adamant we should b/f - which upset me a lot first time in darkest thrush ridden days. And babies put on stacks of weight, so seems wrong to stop just cos it hurts ... Funny old thing the psyche, i suppose is what i'm saying in very long winded way.

ps: have baby ib one warm so sorry for spelling etc!

Think "it's more complicated than breast or bottle isn't it?" would make a good quote of the week...

I would be sooo proud !