Probably very silly questions about breastfeeding

[AntoinetteCosway]

DD never breastfeed despite good intentions (and manhandling) from a lot of experts, an enforced stay in hospital and much blood, sweat and tears from me. Well, no blood, but the sweat and tears definitely. She had a hugely traumatic birth and was just not interested, never latched on at all, screamed around a boob if it was put in her mouth and generally refused. I was very sad and am only just forgiving myself for not being able to 'make' her do it.

Now pregnant again and I understand all babies are different! So maybe this one will be more interested.

Anyway, first stupid question is this: when they say the baby needs the whole nipple in it's mouth, what exactly is meant by that? Does that include the areola? Because mine are about 8cm wide and even when erect (is that the right term for a nipple?! hard?!) still not much less. I just don't see how that's possible...

Also, my nipples don't really go hard anyway and last time round one HV cut a syringe in half to try and make it happen. I'd rather avoid that humiliation (and agony, with serrated plastic against my boob) this time. So second question is, do they need to be hard to begin a feed or does the act of feeding draw them out? Or do they not need to be?

Thanks in advance and I'm sorry, I know these must seem absurd to someone who's done it. I just want to be as educated as possible about all the little things that are useful to know/assumed knowledge so I can be as prepared as possible.

Antoinette, I had exactly the same experience as you with my first and part of me was convinced the same would happen with my second. It didn't. My second was keen right from the word go.

However, he had tongue-tie and it was excrutiating. He wasn't getting a deep enough latch. I knew something was wrong because if it were really that painful no woman would breastfeed! When it was eventually diagnosed and fixed (after about 2 weeks - had to go to a tongue-tie clinic after much banging on tables) it was a completely different experience. And 2 yrs 3 mnths later we are still breastfeeding.

So my advice is, if it feels wrong (or painful) it very probably is. Get RL support. Both La Leche and NCT diagnosed tongue-tie from the symptoms described over the phone, despite 4 HCPs assuring me it wasn't that. And check out specialist tongue-tie breastfeeding counsellors/clinics in your area. It is more common than you'd think.

Skin-to-skin contact in the early days always helps. As does infant-led feeding.

Oh and I'd advise against nipple shields. I used them with my youngest whilst going through the pain of tongue-tie and he got nipple confusion, just to add to the complications (sorted by a deep hot bath with him as submerged as possible - google rebirthing - and plenty of skin-to-skin).

Antoinette - where are you based? If London / surrey i can recommend a brilliant lactation consultant.

Also, check out you tube. There are tons of excellent videos and demonstrations on latch, positioning etc which are very useful.

Sexnight I could have written your first paragraph-exactly the same thing, even down to 4 days in hospital and eventually discharging myself because they refused to discharge me. I'm so glad your second baby was a different story! Am def going to look up LLL.

Indigo good tip, thanks-didn't know such a thing existed (apart from in the form of cut-off syringes!).

scallops that's so good to hear that DC2 was keen and really encouraging.

With regards to the deep enough latch thing you mention, I was looking again at some of the diagrams linked to above and am a bit worried that my boobs are too 'round' to get deeply into a baby's mouth-that probably sounds bonkers but surely there has to be an element of pointiness for the nipple to get right back to the soft palette? I was practising (!) holding my boob at 3 and 9 as suggested and it creates a really wide and long bit of boob...that's really badly explained, but basically I think it would be easier if my boobs weren't GG! Anyone successfully breast fed with very large breasts?

Bona thank you but I'm in Yorkshire sadly. I've found someone and emailed her to find out exactly what sort of services she offers so hopefully I'll hear back from her soon. Good tip about YouTube-I might google 'breast feeding with large breasts and flat nipples' and hope I don't get any dodgy results!

I had some really useful advice from la leche. My baby wasn't interested and wouldn't latch. LLL said let him lie on your chest and don't push his head to the breast as the midwife had told me to do. LLL said that babies have a natural instinct to rear back if pushed, so just let him lay there and nuzzle and move his head about. Eventually he did find the breast and latch on by himself. This was day 5 after 5 days of expressing and feeding with a cup

Wow-I wish someone had told me that with DD!

I know, I'd been pushing his head towards the nip for ages, which is what the midwife told me to do. LLL were right though, he was rearing back!

I had a very traumatic delivery with dd. V long labour and I pushed for 8 hours. She ended up with muscle damage in her neck and shoulder where she was wedged and the attempts to get her out instrumentally failed. She was born by emcs and it became clear quite quickly that moving her head hurt. She would howl if you tried to move her to the breast and we had to get creative with feeding. We also did a lot of biological nurturing (letting dd find the breast on her own) and she was also treated for the muscle damage. It was a long, hard road tbh. Many, many tears. I did bf her until she was 3 but that was luck really and some good support at the nth hour.

Second time round, had another emcs following a long labour but none of the damage or trauma. DS fed brilliantly from a few minutes old and I never had a problem. He's still feeding at 2.5.

Two very, very different experiences. The difference came from good support, knowledge and a baby who wasn't traumatised or manhandled.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks Showy. Although it's sad hearing about other people's difficulties I must say it's hugely encouraging hearing about subsequent babies who BF.

Antoinette - I also have huge boobs. That's the type of thing a LC can help with because certain positions make it much easier than others.

You may also want to think about expressing some colostrum into syringes before the birth and freezing them to have on hand. That means if you have a tt or your milk is slow to come in you have an alternative to ff in reserve. I did this and it was a real life saver. Again LC or you tube will help you.

Thanks Bona-good idea about expressing in advance-I hadn't even thought of that as a possibility.

Following this thread with intrest as have a 6 day old who is feeding but not well and extremely painful for me, I also have large breasts and wondered if that made it more difficult. It was a long hard birth (instrumental followed by emcs) and the mw did the force baby to breast thing as her blood sugars were too low. Lovely to read that things can improve and good luck to you op.

Oh could I ask the name of the recommended consultant around London / Surrey?

Flyaway. Her name is Siobhan Pearce - if you google her name her website should come up. She is a doula and lactation consultant. She is sooo lovely and will be a great support.

If you are in pain your LO could have a tongue tie (my DS's tt was not picked up in hospital by either mws or registrar even tho I asked them to check, but Siobhan spotted it and we had it separated). You may find rugby ball hold easier - I found it tricky to get the hang of at the start but ended up using it for weeks until DS was a bit bigger in comparison to my boobs and his latch improved.

flyawayblue, Dr Malcolm Levinkind laser's tongue and lip ties, he is based in North London: www.drlevinkind.com/

I found the rugby ball position works brilliantly with large boobs. Baby now 4 months and we can do other positions if needed (like out and about), but prefer this one. I sit on the sofa with lots of cushions making me upright and baby lays on 4 pillows next to me for rugby ball hold.

I agree on lansinoh for nipples at the start!

Ginger - malcom levekind is a tt specialist, not a lactation consultant!!

Rugby ball hold to begin with for us as well, large boobs here too. But only on one side, she had her own preferences as to how she would feed which I discovered after a lot of trial and error.

Nipple shields - I needed to use them because when my milk came in she was just unable to latch on , which was a shame because the first three days she fed perfectly. They have been my saviour. I tried to wean her off but no luck and a year on she's been ebf with the shields and they haven't affected supply or anything.

I had a how to breastfeed information on tap - which basically meant for the first few weeks I read and re read and looked at all the information in how to do it whilst I was feeding and during and after. The breastfeeding support worker from the nhs was a godsend.

And cake. Cake helped.