You Know How People Talk About Rude BF People?

[NotQuiteCockney]

Well, I met one today!

I was at Running Club, and holding someone else's toddler. She was a lot heavier than DS2, even though she's a good bit younger. And I was complaining, gently, about how heavy she was, to a woman I don't know very well (not part of the running club).

She immediately went off on a whole rant about how baby cows put on weight quickly, and how can people give babies dairy, and goat's milk is so so so much better and closer to breastmilk (I thought it was a little closer? Maybe?), and ranting about chemicals and hormones and all sorts of crap.

And I ahemed a bit. And said, oh, but this baby is adopted, so her mum couldn't really breastfeed. Oh, mad scary woman knows women who've adopted and bf. Well, ok, that's possible, but it'll be bloody hard work, particularly if you haven't bf before.

It was wildly bogglesome. I mean, ok, I think maybe the girl I was holding had had bottles at the park before. But the woman talking to me didn't know whether I had breastfed or bottlefed my kids. What hurtful things to say to someone you don't know, on such a delicate issue!

I was deeply boggled. I don't know this woman very well, and don't think I will be getting to know her much better ...

I met a woman whose first direct question to me, knowing only that I had children and that I worked (she didn't), was 'How long did you breastfeed for'

Ah, the joys of competitive mothering

You only say stuff like that if you're deeply unhappy about something in your own life

I always have the strongest urge to take up the other extreme when I talk to people like this. I would love to tell her that ds was not only never breastfed, but weaned onto Petit Filous and Sunny Delight by the time he was two months just to see if I could get her blood pressure up to a dangerous level. I very rarely give into the urge though.

I live in East London. Most of the mums I see in this park are not ... hmmm ... not overly concerned about their children's diet, let's say. Lots of blue ice lollies etc. Which is their choice, and I wouldn't dream of lecturing them about it.

You're right, F&Z, she was just a jerk. And, as bran points out, one with a particular mania. Maybe she's more relaxed about non-food-related stuff? She seemed generally really mellow. A few times ago, she took a bunch of photos of my DS1 and her DD playing together, and showed them to me. (She spoke very positively about how friendly and outgoing and nice DS1 was, which may be part of why I liked her, before.)

bran, I do empathise with your contrarian urge. Mine surfaces sometimes, but didn't, this time.

Arse, think vegan oatmeal biscuits are burning. More later, no doubt.

I do actually have a reasonably close friend who is super-vigilant on food issues. Her kids are vegetarian, with only healthy food etc etc. She grinds her own wholemeal flour and so on. (This one also isn't F&Z.)

And she's quite judgemental about other people's unwise food choices, in her way. But she's German with it, and seems a bit depressed or something, so it doesn't bug me (that much). And is good friends with another friend of mine whose kids just eat whatever.

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In her defense, there is allot to be passionate about with breastfeeding but from my experience anyone that talks openly about this (without checking if they are talking to a fellow breastfeeder) always gets it in the neck and seems to cause great offense.

I know talking about how great breastfeeding is to someone who wanted to do it but couldn't would be very hurtful - so tact is ALWAYS neeeded - but, given this country's terrible and ever-declining breastfeeding rates, isn't it about time people started feeling like they coult shout from the rooftops about it? Or at least feeling like they can be open about it? How else can we make other mums and the general population feel more comfortable to do it?

A year ago I would have agreed with you NQC, but having experience the gorps of passers by as I discreetly breastfed my baby, fended off comments like "all the breastfed babies I know cry all the time" and from 6 months on "are you STILL breastfeeding", having realised how little some people know about it, I'm all for people promoting it at every opportunity.

Promoting breastfeeding does not extend to claiming that all adoptive mothers ought to bf their babies, though. That is loopy.

And, TBH, "promoting" breastfeeding in a particularly loopy manner like that is counterproductive -- it creates a "oh, breastfeeders are all loony lentil-weaving weirdos, and I'm not, so I'd better bottlefeed" vibe rather than a pro-breastfeeding vibe.

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To say that 'that all adoptive mothers ought to bf their babies' would indeed be 'loopy'. But, according to NQC's post, she didn't say that. She said she had 'known' someone to breastfeed their adopted baby. What's so bad about that? I can well imagaine how hard that would be maybe she was just making the point that it can be done - which it is entirely possible to do so.

The fact also remains that, in this country, we treat the majority of our livestock in a disgraceful, inhumane manner and routenly feed them anti-biotics and other drugs and supplement them on dodgy, cheap food stuffs. This means that thier milk, which we go on to consume, does contain small residues of these substannces and suffers in its nutritionally quality.

Basically, I'm saying that, IMO this women does have apoint. She obviously didn't put it across well to NQC - hence the post- but she does have a point and we are all to quick to brand people 'loonies' when they have an alternative opinion on one which we don't agree with.

Luckily, I have never met breastfeeding 'loonies/competitive bitch types'. But everyone I know that has breastfed, especially extendedly, have had such good experiences of it that they are sad that more women don't do it and want more women to have the opportinuty to do get to grips with it and feel comfortable breastfeeding around others. Maybe I'll be labelled as one of these types now for my posts. The way we treat breastfeeding in this country - it wouldn't surprise me one bit..

Weasel milk is the closest to human milk?

c'mon NQC - you secretly have always wanted to meet a BF nutter

The only wierdo I've ever met was at a M&T group where she refused to let her sprog have a biscuit and juice - out came the tub of houmas, couscous and cucumber. I coudln't ake my eyes off her. it was true car crash TV

I don't think it was the "BF is great" comments that this fruitloop made that were causing her to branded as such though was it? It was the dafto comments about cows and goats and babies growing too fast but not growing and all the slightly hysterical stuff....

You can be pro-bf and encourage it etc etc without being judgemental/prejudiced against "alternative methods"..can't you?

It appears to me that the woman's whole conversation amounted to "This child has a weight problem because she's on dairy. It's perfectly possible to bf an adopted child."

I can see that the last comments could have been just an interesting digression into discussing bf when adopting, but NQC (who was actually there, unlike you or me) doesn't seem to think that's how it was meant.

It is entirely possible for some adoptive mothers to bf some adopted babies, yes. In most cases it's not possible to exclusively bf, though, and in many cases it's not possible to bf at all.

Based on what NQC has said, it doesn't sound as though this particular woman had an 'alternative opinion' it sounds as though she had a mish-mash of not entirely consistent half-opinions (cows' milk makes babies put on weight too fast ... but she's surprised that they put on any weight on it - ???)

I still think strongly that her approach was counterproductive. If she can manage to alienate a very strongly pro-bf and pro-organic mother then what on earth would the impact have been on someone who wasn't pro-bf to start with? I can't see how she would have stood the smallest chance of making anyone feel more comfortable.

"The only wierdo I've ever met was at a M&T group where she refused to let her sprog have a biscuit and juice"

I think you'll find that's quite common, especially not letting toddler have "juice", but which I assume you mean squash. I don't let mine have it either - I take pure juice mixed with water and give it to them. I'm not the only one either. It's because the squash is full of toxic chemicals.

[puts on more-weirdo-than-thou hat]DS doesn't get juice juice either, except very occasionally[removes hat]. He does get biscuits from time to time, though, and he hates cucumber (he licks it, pulls a disgusted face and drops it on the floor).

This woman wasn't trying to have a conversation about adopted mums doing bf. I would be happy to have a chat about that sort of thing. This was a mad rant, that I think she thought I would agree with.

I honestly don't know if this woman knows I bf, or that I am strongly pro-bf. But I am not so strongly pro-bf as to run about talking loudly about what dreadful stuff formula and cow's milk are. (And how much better goat's milk is. How much different can goat's milk be, they're ruminants too, aren't they?)

The thing is, saying "bf is great, I love bf, bf is the best thing for babies" is a lot more positive and pleasant and useful (if still sometimes hurtful) than "formula is evil, it makes babies put on weight like cow's, I can't believe they survive on it".

I know lots of people who are freaky about food, I know:

• someone who doesn't let her DS have yogurt, because she thinks it has rennet in (It doesn't!! Ever!! Arrgh!)

• someone who phoned me up before DS1's second birthday party to check if there would be gelatin in any of the food

• lots of people who avoid gelatine, additives, colourants, etc etc. Well, I'm in this category, really.

But this woman was beyond the pale in food fussiness, even by my relatively-food-nazi-standards.

LeahE Biscuits?

Oh, and cheeseypeas, I do promote bf, I am an extended bf-er, by most people's standards (DS2 now 21 months), and I tell people about it. I speak positively about bf, hopefully without hurting people.

I know lots and lots of bf mums, I'm active in my local nct, and my childcare co-op is full of lentilweavers. One of my best friends is a BFC. I met Jack Newman the other week!

But this mad conversation made me want to shout and scream at the woman talking to me, not feel positive about bf. How bad would I have felt if I'd not managed to bf?

Fuck, if she'd been talking, about say, c-sections, and saying similarly ranty mad things about how bad c-sections are for babies (both my DSes arrived that way, which was not what I wanted), I probably would have burst into tears and started screaming at her.

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Talking of rude b/f-ing people - a friend of mine gave up breastfeeding her ds when he was 2months old. The militant breastfeeder at the baby and toddler group saw her getting a bottle out and barked at her, in full hearing of the whole group, "aren't you breastfeeding any more?". When told no, she looked at the baby and said "Oh, poor you, ds!"

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I can understand, sorta, being mad and rude about these things when you're completely sleep deprived and have a small baby.

No, people don't realise how delicate these matters are, really. A few weeks after having DS2, and knowing, for sure, that I would never have a natural birth, a Canadian friend called up to tell me about the absolutely lovely birth his wife had just had. I was pretty much in tears on the phone with bitterness and envy and pretty much hatred. He didn't realise, which I guess is for the best, he's always been oblivious, and didn't mean anything horrid by it.

God what a horrible woman, Miaou. What a vile thing to do to another mother.