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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

nightmare: follow up on feeding problems (long, sorry)

51 replies

jennyapples · 10/08/2013 16:09

Hello all,
I asked a couple weeks ago for some help about the absolute agony of feeding my little boy. The overwhelming suggestion was that it was a tongue tie and I received some excellent links for people to contact. My health visitor agreed (over the phone) that it sounded like a tongue tie and the midwife at the breastfeeding clinic at the hospital agreed that it was a tongue tie.

My health visitor gave me a referral and I went to the 'rapid access tongue tie clinic' at St. George's hospital in Tooting, London, with high hopes.

The doctor (Jamil something?) was arrogant from the outset and wanted to take the baby into the other room to examine and perform the procedure if needed. Umm...no. I'm not squeamish but my discomfort is much less important than being there if my baby does need me. He looked at me like I was completely mental for coming into the room.

He and the nurse examined the baby and said that there was absolutely no tongue tie, nothing there, complete tongue movement. They handed him to me and went on with their business, acting like I wasn't there. He said "it's a good thing that there's no tie" and I was clearly upset, because this put us right back at square one. He looked at me like some lunatic with Munchausen's by proxy or something, like I WANTED to have my baby's tongue cut. It was so distressing.

So then two days later, this Wednesday, I went to my local breastfeeding clinic at the hospital. The very experienced midwife there took one look and said that it was obvious he has a posterior tongue tie, his tongue doesn't move properly, he can't stay on the breast for more than a few minutes. I just started crying because I'm exhausted by the whole thing.

So now I don't know what to do. I can't handle going to another specialist only for them to tell me I'm crazy and there's no tie. I'm going to try cranial osteopathy because, well, why not. The midwife said that we should find other positions that minimize the jaw contact and I did have some luck in the session, though I've struggled to replicate that.

I've tried to contact Ann Dobson IBCLC repeatedly but no answer, so I would recommend not bothering with her. If she's on holidays she needs an out of office message on her phone and email. The midwife gave me a couple other names to try and I'll contact them.

I have no idea what to do next. HCPs either don't answer me or tell me I'm nuts. The LLL website won't let me sign in for some reason so I can't seek help there. And EVERYONE I know keeps telling me "oh yes it hurts at first, hang in there" like I'm not bloody trying hard enough. This is not regular pain. Next person who tells me that, I will go berserk at. Next person who tells me to just use some lanolin and get on with it, same thing. I'm just despairing...everyone I know is suddenly reproducing and they all keep complaining about difficulty breastfeeding in public. I'd LOVE to be able to. They keep complaining about how boring it is to sit and feed for hours at a time. I want nothing more than to do that. I have no idea what to do. :(

OP posts:
minipie · 11/08/2013 13:32

good luck, hope you get to see him quickly.

Canalside · 11/08/2013 20:46

Oh no, so sorry to read this update. You poor thing, sounds like you've really been round the houses.

I hope you manage to get it sorted. Good luck.

milktraylady · 11/08/2013 21:02

Yes OP do persevere.
I had to with my DD tt. Lots of bf problems, posted on here 'help meeee' loads of people said tt. I looked it was (week 12). Gp agreed & referred us. Choose & book NHS for st Mary's in london was 9 day wait. Doc was super nice & snipped it.

Bf shouldn't hurt loads. And tt affects the sucking, the latch & even jaw movement.

We have had 2 appts with a cranial osteopath & her latch is the best it's ever been- she just couldn't open her mouth enough & rubbish latch.

Doc said tt affects jaw muscle development in utero even.

Plus my dd is measurably happier in herself after the cranial ost. I strongly recommend you see a cranial ost when the tt is cut.

Good luck & keep persevering!

jennyapples · 12/08/2013 11:20

Milktraylady - thank you for sharing! I'm actually around the corner from St Mary's, and that's where LO was born. I don't know why I didn't even think to try a referral there. I contacted Dr. Levinkind's office this morning but can't get an appointment until the very end of August. I think I might ring up my health visitor again and ask her to refer me to St Mary's.

I'm SO terrified of another doctor treating me like I'm crazy and telling me there's nothing there, but you've made me feel better! Do you happen to remember which doctor you saw and what type of doc they were? ENT? Peds? Two midwives have said they think there's a PTT so I'm not totally unhinged...

On the recommendations here on mumsnet I've booked a cranial osteopath appointment and hope that will help!

Thanks and I'm so glad it worked out for you in the end! xx

OP posts:
Trying2bMindful · 12/08/2013 23:21

How is it going OP? WE had a very similar experience to you with the PTT, lots of pain and useless HCPs.
In the end Siobhan Pearce (a LC) recommended Mary Griffiths. She came to my home and sorted the PTT there and then. She spent a few hours with us taking a full history and observing a feed before and after the snip but the procedure itself took only a moment.
It was money well spent. DS is still bf and he is now 14mo. He does have an ULT too but we have left that as it was a fight too far and does not seem to cause him any problems.
Adam the Osteo at the neals yard remedy shop on Northcote Rd in Battersea was amazing too. gave ds 4 sessions and it really helped.
Good luck.
Please let us know how you get on.

ButteryJam · 16/08/2013 18:43

How did you get on? Your experience sounds like mine. The consultant told me there was no such thing as a posterior tongue tie! I got my LO tongue and PT done with the dentist in Huddersfield who also uses laser.

minipie · 18/08/2013 13:54

Hi OP,just wondering if you managed to see anyone?

jennyapples · 19/08/2013 16:16

Hi guys, I have an appointment next week with Dr. Levinkind.

I have contacted Ann Dobson (twice) and Mary Griffiths (once). Neither has bothered to reply to me. I also contacted Juliet Albert, but she replied to say she was on holiday (at least she could be bothered!). So no joy there.

My GP said that she couldn't really definitively say anything about PTT by looking and that particular tools should be used - this makes me wonder what that jerk specialist was doing because I'm almost positive he just took a peek in baby's mouth before dismissing PTT entirely. :\

GP said I should also see a pediatric surgeon so she's set up a referral (to St. Mary's) and I have an appointment 9th Sept. If Dr. Levinkind doesn't pan out then I'll go to that appointment.

One thing I did was go to osteopathy (Leinster Square Osteopathy) and I believe the practitioner I saw was Martyn Edwards. I was VERY nervous - because I hate pseudoscience and was worried it would be rough - but he was very calm and gentle and lovely. He said that baby did have tension in his neck and jaw and released that. I thought it was probably a load of hooey and ignored it. Next day I noticed that baby was sticking his tongue out for the first time in his life. It was a very striking difference; he kept doing it so I tried to BF. Sure enough, there was very little pain. I then switched to the right breast and it was like sticking my nipple in a meat grinder again.

I've since had several mostly painless feeds on the left side and the right side remains agonizing. Even during the painless feeds though, he won't stay on the breast for any longer than about 10-15 minutes, and is often pulling away during that time. If you know what I mean. His swallowing seems better since the osteopathy and is spilling less but is still spilling.

I'm finding it really hard, guys. I'm terrified that the next HCP will tell me there's no PTT. Well-meaning but obnoxious people keep telling me that "it's supposed to hurt" and "keep trying" and "you're just sensitive". I've tried. I can't take it. They're making me feel awful and like it's my fault :( And I tell you, the next person who tells me I just need to use lanolin? ..............so help me god!

I've kind of given up hope that this will ever get sorted. What if it really isn't PTT? Then what on earth is the next step? All the MW, HV, LC, GP, everyone, says no it shouldn't hurt like that, but when they don't know the answer, they kind of run away. I have no idea what would be the next step if it isn't PTT...I think at that point I might just give up for good. :(

Sorry for long tangent. x

OP posts:
TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor · 19/08/2013 16:53

I had the exact same problems and dd had a posterior TT and upper lip tie. I paid to see a holistic dentist who released both using a laser and all of the problems were resolved. It is really frustrating but it sounds like you'll get it sorted next week when you see Dr Levinkind. My mum also couldn't bf my sister or I, the doctor checked my mouth when her treated dd and said I also had a posterior TT!

jennyapples · 19/08/2013 18:07

TMDOTTD (fantastic screen name btw haha) the thing I'm scared of is the dentist saying that there is no tie, like the other doctor said. If that's the case, I have no idea what to try next :(

PS One of the MW said that she thinks I have a PTT and I've figured I think I had an ULT when I was a kid (they seem to break before adulthood, and I did once get hit in the face by a baseball!)!

OP posts:
TooManyDicksOnTheDancefloor · 19/08/2013 18:15

I'm pretty sure that the doctor you are seeing trained the doctor we saw. My dd's was only a slight ptt but he still lasered it. The NHS weren't interested in helping us either, they lost our referral then refused to see her because she was four months old and I was still breastfeeding so there couldn't possibly be a problem, go figure Confused. Dr Levinkind will see what the midwife has seen, don't worry xx

peppinagiro · 19/08/2013 19:00

Hey - just to say that Ann Dobson is definitely around as my friend has been dealing with her. But if she's being elusive and you need a lactation consultant, then you could try Maria Yasnova. She's been so helpful for me, and I know she's helped a few of my friends with tongue tie referrals. Good luck! X

minipie · 20/08/2013 08:35

Glad you have got an appt, hope it goes well and there is PTT and it gets treated. it will make an enormous difference (just to warn you - it can take a few days to notice a difference as the baby has to relearn technique after the tie is cut). I would be surprised if dr Levenkind doesn't find a tie. if he doesn't I can only suggest back to the cranial osteopath for more work (sounds like it might be worth that anyway)

good luck

jennyapples · 20/08/2013 10:01

TMDOTTD - t hank you that is reassuring xx It's hard when one doctor treats you badly and it makes you doubt yourself, ya know? :\

Peppinagiro - Iiiiinteresting, well I'd love to know why I'm not worth replying to! I had told another midwife that I'd contacted her and that midwife rolled her eyes and said "yeah, she's very unreliable"...not to speak ill but at least it's not just me! I'm sure she's great at what she does, but a simple reply would be nice! I will look up Maria, thank you! x

Minipie - thank you too for your reassurance. I sure hope that it's fixable. And that's great to be warned that it might take a bit. In any case I think I will try the cranial osteopath again because it was such a good experience!

Do you guys think that it's a combination of tight jaw and PTT that is creating the problems maybe? Now that I can feed him on the left, it doesn't hurt me, but he's pulling away after only a couple seconds and won't stay attached for more than, say, 5-15 minutes total. The right side is still like turning my right nipple into mince!!

I keep saying it but thanks all for your support. This has been very difficult and I honestly think I would've lost the plot if it wasn't for you guys xx

OP posts:
ButteryJam · 20/08/2013 10:59

I had the same thing that one side hurted more than the other and I still have that. My LO has both LT and PPT lasered but it hasn't completely taken the pain away, it still hurts most of the time but it's not unbearable. However, I think it's because her latch isn't as good and it took almost 2 weeks plus for her to take her tongue out more. We are starting osteopathy tomorrow (which is pretty late!) which I'm hoping will solve the problem. I would highly recommend that you continue with osteopathy because I think a combination is what is required to really solve the issue. I was really hoping dividing the tongue tie would be the miracle cure and I think I had my expectations set too high. However I can say that before TT I was insistent on putting her on bottle, and after the treatment I am saying I could probably manage, but would still like her to take a bottle now and then to give me a break.

My LO was about 9 weeks and it has been 3 weeks since its been done. It sounds like those who had TT done when baby much younger saw an immediate difference, whereas at 9 weeks bad habits have already set in and it takes a while for them to re-learn and I'm guessing all the tension in the jaw has built up and needs to be released. All the best Smile

jennyapples · 20/08/2013 11:40

Thank you ButteryJam (ooh now I have a craving!) :)

From my experience, I think the osteopathy can REALLY help. It was amazing to see little baby stick his tongue out for the first time at 1 month old! Good luck to you too!

OP posts:
RoadToTuapeka · 20/08/2013 22:03

I saw Graham Smith at Kingston by NHS referral with DS1 and private apt with DS2 as didn't believe West Mid hospital who said no tongue tie; he was good I thought, and both babies fed much better after the very quick snip. Good luck!

Canalside · 21/08/2013 15:00

Just to say that my left side has always been more painful than my right, even now, 8 months in I can feel it more, though it doesn't hurt. You're not unusual in that respect!

jennyapples · 30/08/2013 23:09

Hi guys, I have a follow up for you.

We took LO to Dr Levinkind on Thursday. I immediately felt reassured and at ease - he is a true professional and treated us with respect, unlike that awful man we dealt with at St George's. Dr Levinkind examined LO and confirmed that he had a posterior tongue tie, as well as a grade 3.5 upper lip tie! So it was fairly severe and clear as day - again, I wonder what ON EARTH that other doctor was looking at, but that's another matter (for my forthcoming complaint letter to the hospital).

Anyway, he took LO into the other room to perform the procedure. I was initially very uncomfortable with not being in the room for it, but Dr Levinkind reassured us that it was so that he could completely focus on baby and do his best job possible. I felt like I really trusted him and baby went off with him and the nurse, who was also lovely.

A quick 20 min later they returned. The nurse told us that LO did well, and even slept through most of the procedure! Dr Levinkind had me try to breastfeed LO and it WAS different. He was no longer gasping or pulling away. Most of the real pain had been removed by the osteopathy but it didn't matter because he still wouldn't stay on the breast. After the procedure, he did!

He also had us practice the exercises and stretches to keep the ties from regrowing, and we've been doing those 3 times a day as instructed. LO doesn't like it much but he seems to forget about it the moment he stopped.

I just wanted to come back to say a heartfelt thank you to the ladies who replied. You know how distressing it is to not be able to feed the baby, be treated like a crazy lady, be in indescribable pain, and not know where to turn next. So, thank you for your info and support! And if anyone asks, I'm also a big fan and would recommend Dr Levinkind and his team to anyone. :)

OP posts:
minipie · 31/08/2013 15:15

oh that is Brilliant News OP i am so glad. best wishes.

ButteryJam · 31/08/2013 15:34

Fab news, so happy for you! Smile

AllSWornOut · 31/08/2013 16:16

OP I'm really pleased for you. Despite having an obvious tt snipped straight after birth DC is exhibiting all if the symptoms described by minipie and I'm becoming more convinced by the day that DC has a ptt. He also has a lip tie, so interesting that they often go together.

You are giving me real hope we can get this resolved (unfortunately not in the UK and where i am it it's unusual to snip tt). I am waiting for my lc to get back to me with the name of the one person that does them here.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

milktraylady · 31/08/2013 21:52

That's wonderful OP, so pleased you got it sorted!
Really sorry I didn't see your question until today, just rummaging in the box for the st Mary's doc name (might be useful for someone searching the threads doing desperate tt research)

And yes I'm a convert for osteopathy too. From trying it as a last resort (having read about it on mumsnet) to complete success & happy baby. (Also getting my back & hips fixed too!)
It's completely medical & not woo- for baby it's a very gentle loosening of the jaw & head & neck muscles.

Bf- I also had no problem 1 side, pain & blockages every few days on other side. And when you saw the 'wonky' tongue it was so obvious why.

As to the bf people not bothering to respond to you- shocking service. When you reach out for bf help generally you are feeling pretty low & vulnerable. To be ignored is awful.

100% well done on your perserverance. Really pleased your mechanical problems are now behind you.

As my lovely birth midwife said- Feed feed feed! Grin

mawbroon · 01/09/2013 21:22

Ah, good to hear this.

I hope there's no reattachment and it all heals well and you can have a nice nursing relationship for as long as you want!

DS1's ties went undiagnosed until he was 5yo. He has had many problems which I have since discovered are common in tied kids. Hopefully, by revising your LO so young you will avoid these difficulties.

mawbroon · 01/09/2013 21:24

And also, please do complain about the other guy. The HCPs who don't understand ties, but think they do, are not helpful in the least.

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