Please help me get through a rocky bf patch.

[Indith]

Ds2 is 17 months. He has been wonderful, very healing after the disaster I was after dd (sorry dd :() and bf has played a big part in that.

But he still doesn't fucking sleep. Dd still has very disturbed sleep age 4 and a half, I can do disturbed sleep but what I am struggling with is not going down on his own at all ever.

So we tried to night wean. Actually we tried ages ago, I'm a student MW and sometimes I work nights. Dh had fun with that one . Anyway the last session dh moved onto the spare bed in ds1's room (which is waiting for ds2 to go in it), I slept in the spare "room" (study/sofa bed that links in to dd's room, not a proper room) and ds2 remained in our room. We did this for weeks. Sort of felt like we were making progress, he was going down without too much grumbling, waking a couple of times a night and resettling with varying amounts of shouting then waking at 5am and I'd feed him and he'd either be up for the day of fall asleep in my bed. That worked ok since I often get up early anyway for shifts so I could feed him before going.

But now it all seems to have gone wrong again. Ok so we've hit a patch of teething but even with calpol etc he is screaming blue murder if we try to put him down, he wakes at night and screams blue murder. Dh has to try and deal with him as with me he just wants to feed (obviously) but he doesn't settle at feeding anyway. Last night dh was shattered so handed him over to me. When in bed with me he tosses and turns and WILL NOT LET GO OF THE NIPPLE AT ALL ALL BLOODY NIGHT, he kicks me and hits me and every 20 min he climbs over me and settles down to the other side. Even my tough as old boots bf 3 children nipples are feeling it.

Even during the day at teh moment if he feeds he won't ever end the feed, just sits there chewing on my nipples and screams when taken away. And I do take him off as he needs to learn that he has to be gentle.

My big 2 are at my mum's this week so dh and I were hoping that we'd be able to get ds2 into ds1's room and we could once again share our bed bt it just isn't happening. We've moved the cot but he screams far too much and will disturb ds1. So it looks like it is going to be back to separate rooms and beds and that is just fucking shit. I hate it. I miss dh. We just snap at each other and argue about what to do.

Just makes me want to quit. I probably won't affect sleep but at least if I quit then that is a factor out of the equation, I will know that he isn't asking for a feed, I will be able to cuddle him at night without him making a lunge for me, I will be able to share with dh.

Except I don't want to quit. I want to be through this stage and at a point where I can feed him if I'm around and not feed if I'm not and it all be nice. I want to be able to send him packing for a night with his gran too, or feel like I can go visit my elderly grandmother or a friend for a weekend without having to take the baby along therefore making the trip far too complicated and expensive and therefore not doing it.

But he is such a little person still and he needs me and he needs bf.

No advice but I know what you mean about being latched on all night. DD is teething and doing this too. Hopefully their determination will stand them in good stead for later life?!

DS1 was like this. Years later, I discovered he was tongue tied and I learned that many of his behaviours as a baby/toddler were most probably related to the ties.

Tied kids are notoriously bad sleepers, he wanted to be feeding all night and wouldn't let go of me. It went on for years (sorry!) and he wouldn't settle for DH at all. I sometimes came back late from a night out and he was still up.

I tried night weaning at various ages, but it was a disaster. He would be ok after a couple of nights, but then his daytime behaviour would be appalling and going back to the night feeds seemed to sort him out.

Like you, I didn't want to stop either, so we muddled on. Sometimes I would be so, so, so pissed off with it, but then if he was ill and I was able to feed him when he couldn't keep anything down, I would feel glad that we were still feeding. And he developed a milk intolerance around age 2 which again made me glad that we were still feeding.

It's bloody hard though. You have my sympathy.

DD had a tt that was snipped a few months ago, I think it's reformed a bit. Mawbroon I didn't realise it was connected to bad sleeping!

not sure whether this will help or not but I was a terrible sleeper. however when at my nans I slept lovely!!!!!
mys ds2 is/was the same, awful sleeper for us but send him to my mums for the night and he'd sleep!
is this something that might be poss if you do really want to night wean?

I've never seen anything on TT being related to sleep. Will have to research, interested now!

Dd has a TT, a very obvious one not that anyone ever noticed it when i was struggling with her! Ds2 doesn't though I don't think, never noticed any signs of one and has always fed like a dream. He wasn't always like this. When he was 4 months he would feed, roll over and go to sleep at night. When tired in the day he'd just close his eyes and go to sleep wherever he was. Those were the days! He takes his developmental leaps very seriously though so when the next leap and growth spurt arrived that was it and somehow we never got back on track after that what with teeth, leaps, growing, vomit bugs, poo bugs, colds and coughs. Even learning little things like how to wave would result in a week or 2 of furious baby completely unable to go to sleep screaming his knackered head off as dh paced up and down the stairs with him trying to calm him as he yelled and waved manically over dh's shoulder . But he knows how to walk now, he can do it properly and everything so he should flipping well stop developing and sleep for a bit! I want a life, I want to do exercise, I want to sleep in teh bed as dh and possibly maybe occasionally have sex with him. Would be nice if my 6 year old stopped getting up int he morning and telling me how tired he is because he could hear the baby crying at night too.

Flo my mum isn't local so when my kids go they go for a week which is a bit long for the baby.

ahh I see!
not really sure wht to suggest then, lack of sleep is a killer isn't it. ds2 started school recently and has only just started sleeping through! He fed through the bight til nearly 1 year when I just couldn't doit anymore. He still woke up thoughand just wanted to be with us. which was fine ubtil he decided that the best way to sleep was like a star leaving no room for me or dh, so 1 of us would end up in another bed! luckly this wasn't evry night though and is now more rare.

Yes small children are great at taking up most of the bed space!

It really isn't so much teh lack of sleep, I've done that for years, it is the child just not bloody well going to bed! I could handle disrupted sleep if I had an evening, an evening in which stuff could get done, I could spend time with dh, I could put the baby to bed and read with ds1 or dd instead of having to hurry them to bed because the baby is screaming. An evening where I can study without trying to ignore the baby fussing at dh. My home is a shit tip.

I fed dd til she was almost 2 and threw int eh towel because I couldn't hack it any longer. She would feed and go to bed but wake any time from 8pm onwards, around 15 times a night a scream teh place down if anyone other than me and my boobs tried to settle her. So I jsut stopped feeding full stop and told her it was all gone. One night of yelling at me and that was it. She still woke 15 times a night but went back off with a pat on the back from either me or dh. I don't really wnt to resort to that this time but I'm bloody close!

Huh. DD of teh tongue tie and disturbed sleep was investigated by a consultant for sleep apnoea but he couldn't see any problems with adenoidal tissue so told it it wasn't that and sent us on our way. She does have big tonsils but could her mouth breathing, snoring sleep issues really be caused by tongue tie?

YY to tongue tie causing all manner of problems including sleep apnoea. Often where there is a tongue tie, there is also a high palate because the palate is moulded in the womb and beyond by the swallowing action of the tongue. If the swallowing action is compromised, it can result in a high palate. The high palate means that the post nasal appertures can become distorted and the opening into the airway is reduced which can lead to collapse of the airways (apnoea) Google Brian Palmer DDS, his work on this is very interesting.

A tied tongue which is not held in the correct position in the mouth can also restrict the airway during sleep, also causing apnoea and frequent wakings.

TT is also linked to gastric problems (reflux for example) and can cause orofacial problems. DS1 is very flat across the middle section of his face (not that you would notice) and it restricts his nostrils and causes mouth breathing, also he had ear trouble because his eustacian tubes are restricted by the high palate. Also, the tongue kind of sucks a bit on the whole ENT system when swallowing, and if the swallowing action is compromised, then this is not being done properly and can lead to ENT trouble (sorry, not very scientific LOL)

They are also looking at the stimulation of the vagus nerve under the palate. I don't know all the details of this offhand, but it's very interesting what I have read.

DS1 is 7yo now and is having his palate expanded and his orofacial structure corrected with headgear. Otherwise, he would be facing multiple extractions as a teen and the mouth breathing will cause lengthening of the lower jaw which can also cause problems.

If your dd is tied, it is pretty likely that your ds is as well. It may present in a completely different way. DS2 is tied, but he fed like a dream and has beautiful structure dentally and facially, completely different from ds1.

Ask to join the tongue tie babies support group on Facebook. There is all sorts of knowledge on there, parents and professionals alike.

Also google Dr Kotlow, he is the leading expert on lip and tongue ties. His work mostly refers to babies, but you may recognise it from when yours were wee.

Sorry for the essay!!! We went through a lot of shite from HCPs who were clueless about tongue tie, beyond anterior ties and heart shaped tongues. There is waaaaaay more to it than speech and feeding and you need to seek out professionals who have taken a specialised interest, otherwise, they really are pretty clueless.

interesting, lots to look at!

V interesting. We had my DS PTT snipped at 4wo but I always wondered if his not sleeping through still at 14mo could be related. He has an ULT too although no idea re a high palate.
Most British HCPs are clueless :(