help me avoid formula (Tiktok, please read this)

[dds]

Hi all
This is my first post, desperately need some help with bf. Gave up after 6 weeks with dd1 2 years ago, due to poor weight gain. Been reading the bf threads on Mumsnet since then trying to make sure it didn't happen again with second baby, but now having similar problems with dd2 (nearly 6 weeks old). She was 7lb14 at birth, took exactly 3 weeks to regain birthweight and since then has only gained 14oz. I know that's not too bad a gain, but the problem is she is miserable ALL the time. As soon as I stop feeding she screams, even if she's been on there for hours. She is always frantic when she tries to latch on, even though I feed her skin to skin and always feed immediately on demand. She looks healthy but is quite skinny and now I'm getting pressure from family to put her on formula. Really don't want to, but don't want to neglect dd1 so can't carry on feeding all day. Any ideas anyone? (especially Tiktok, please)

I'm not qualified as BFC, but when my dd was low weight gain (we later found out she had heart problem that caused it but...)
The things I was told were
Instead of changing breast, pop baby back onto the finished breast, this increases the amount of hindmilk which ahs denser calories.
Use a dummy (controversial) to keep baby happy sucking inbetween feeds and this will ensure they have good appetite and will drink higher quantity.
Are you eating well? Drinking lots of water, resting enough?
Your dd sounds very restless, is there an issue with wind or colic too maybe?
Just wanted to offer you some support I know what an awful stress it is

La Leche helpline is Call 0845 120 2918
NCT is 0870 444 8708.

dds, I really think your best source of help is someone who will speak to you, and support you at length....I honestly can't tell what's going on from what you say, except to say it is worth taking seriously.

I am afraid I don't agree that the points suggested by Piffle are applicable to you - where there is an issue with weight gain, then feeding on both sides is important, and the use of a dummy is really a no-no. Eating, drinking and resting will make no difference.

It's really stressful when a baby is miserable like this. One thing to ask yourself is 'would my baby be happy and content if she was never apart from me?' and if the answer is 'yes' then it is not a feeding issue....but if your baby is still miserable and desperate and never really gives you the signs she is drunkenly full and happy, then you need to have a good long chat with someone who can find out more about what's going on. You can call the helplines, or speak to a HV (if you have a good one who knows about bf) or find someone locally, or go along to a bf group....the point is to really find someone who can help you get to the bottom of it all. I really hope things work out.

I have a friend who b/f her dd constantly - yet at 8 weeks old she'd only put on a couple of ounces and cried constantly when not at the breast. She was referred to a paediatrician who told her either (sorry can't remember exactly) she just wasn't producing enough milk or that the milk didn't contain enough fat/calories for the baby. She gave the baby some formula and she took two bottles, one after the other then slept for the longest she'd ever slept. She combined both breast and bottle over the coming weeks but baby preferred bottle and proceeded to gain weight fast.

The last thing I want to do is undermine any breast feeding as obviously it is best for baby and best for you and is wonderful when (if)it works but I just thought I'd share this to illustrate that sometimes, with the best will in the world, it doesn't work out. But agree with others - push for some more specialised help.

I would add that my dd2 took just over 5 weeks to get back to her birth weight with breast feeding - but I was lucky as she was otherwise content.

I did read something recently as to the effect that the way breast fed babies and bottle fed babies put on weight is different. I'm sure others know a lot more about this than me.

tiktok just worth mentioning, those were things suggested to me by the BFC at Frimley Park Hospital when dd had not regained her birthweight at 3 weeks and then again low weight gain at 6 weeks.
Amazing what you get told how it varies
Sorry for offering up dud advice :(

Aw, Piffle, don't be :(

It may have been that the info given to you was applicable to you - but one size does not fit all. But keeping the baby on one side only is really not normally a way to deal with poor weight gain. And I really can't believe someone who is professionally qualified would suggest a dummy for a baby who needs to gain more weight....it does not make sense. And she should have been aware about the lack of effect of diet, fluids and rest :(

Emmylou, I too would be worried about an 8 week old only 2 oz above her birthweight, and in a drastic situation like that, I agree, the baby may have needed to have formula...though there is almost always a way to protect the breastfeeding while the crisis is being dealt with.

dds's situation is not anything like as drastic, thank goodness.

dds, not exactly your experience but struggled fopr a whikle too, more later, gotta go to work like right now :)

Thanks everyone
Please don't apologise, Piffle - I've had exactly the same advice from all the health professionals I've seen, and only know from reading mumsnet that it might not be a good idea in my case.
I'm so tired I don't really know how to describe the problem, but I think basically what I'm trying to ask is whether it is a sleep problem or a feeding problem. DD2 will not settle anywhere except in a sling on me. She sleeps on my chest all night and I carry her around all day. If I try to put her down anywhere else she wakes up and cries within a minute, and then she doesn't feed properly because she's tired, which makes me think it's a sleep problem. But if she was well enough fed she would sleep anywhere, wouldn't she? I don't know whether to put her in the sling as soon as she comes off the breast so that she'll sleep for a few hours then feed, or whether I should just keep feeding her all the time.

I had same problem with DD1 now 3 months. And due to low or no weight gain ( and no dirty nappies) had to go on formula. But Doc insisted that I always fed 10 mins either side and then gave formula. Now she feeds longer and I can tell how much formula to give just to top her up. I had to give formula 4 feeds out of 6 or 6 out of 8 and found that she slept happier especially later on in the day when it was obvious my milk was doing nothing.
In first month I latched her on even when not 'feed' time to try and stimulate my milk flow but to no avail. I have continued and still BF as much as I can but I now have a happier and fuller baby !
Good luck with whatever you decide to do .

A friend of mine had the same problem - and one solution that was offered to her was to express breastmilk and then add some formula to it - this worked for her for a while.

But I think everyone is right, you do need to go and get some specialist advice for you and your dd.

havent read all thread BUT...

dd3 was 6 7 at birth and is now 7 13 - so thats not much more than your dd (she is 6 weeks also). She does exactly what your dd does - NOT because of my supply (I believe ) but because she is a sucky baby who loves loves loves to suck and feed. My dd3 is TINY weeny and still skinny but I have never considered formula.

does she poo a lot? how long does she sleep for? dd3 goes 3 or 4 hours at night and does loads of poos in the day so I am completely happy that she is getting enough. But it is soooooooo wearing having a sucky baby so I may express some bm and get dh to give it in a bottle in the evening to give me a teensy break.

oh yes I have to carry dd3 in a sling too and she sleeps really well in my arms in the night

but she has STARTED going to sleep next to me at least but god forbid I should put her in a moses basket/chair she goes bananans

I promise you that this is a phase and she will grow out of it eventually - dd1 was the same and she is a lovely well adjusted 6 year old.

dds, what you describe is a baby who needs to be with you and is very sensitive to not being with you....I still think you need to speak to someone at length, because it's only by having someone listen and ask questions that you can get the support, and possible ideas, you need.

Some babies are, indeed, like this. For most of the human race's existence, and even now in pre-industrial societies (which still exist), this is what babies do - they are next to mum all the time day and night. We have evolved to be like this as babies. It is a natural and normal state to be in - but wow....in 21st century western society it can be exhausting and demoralising to care for a baby like this. Some babies adapt pretty quickly to cots, prams and scheduled feeds. Other babies don't - and being wakeful after just a few moments of not being next to mummy is not a sign of hunger, but a sign of sensitivity and awareness, and a very strong preference for the favourite place to be. Your baby's weight gain is slow, but not alarmingly so, and it may be that going with the flow and not taking her off or expecting her to sleep away from you could boost it. OTOH maybe this is physiologically normal for her, and you are already doing the go-with-the-flow thing.

Babies who are given the comfort and response they 'ask' for when small are less likely to be miserable and whiny later on - this has just been confirmed in recent research but there are loads of other studies showing the same thing.

Whatever....you need support and help to sleep. Someone needs to be able to take the baby and be prepared to hold her close while you have a break, and this needs to happen every day.

Your dd1 needs a little bit of guarenteed mummy time every day, too, without the baby being there.

The 'solutions' of formula, or expressing and adding formula to the EBM, are not really solutions, I don't think, at least not for somone who is very keen to bf, as you are.
In time, my guess is this phase will pass and your will find bf is a breeze and a great way of feeding conveniently.

I was talking to someone yesterday and saying 'well she is so happy and contented when she is being cuddled or fed and sleeps soundly when in my arms/next to me. But she goes mad when put down or not allowed to suck on demand'

they said 'well its not suprising really is it?'

and it isnt I suppose.

My DD is 6 weeks old today. She re-gained her birthweight at 5 weeks and her weight was the same when weighed yesterday (8lb 2oz). She poos and wees regularly and seems happy. She wants to feed very often and I try to feed her on demand (sometimes every hour and a half for up to 40 mins) . She too would only sleep in a sling and on my chest at night but last 2 nights she has slept in her carrycot by my bed a friend suggested I raise it at one end and cover the foot with the duvet so she thinks she's in bed and it worked - just keep trying!
I do worry about her weight gain but want to continue bf.

TikTok - is my baby's weight gain alarmingly slow?

I'm here now :)

Some aspects of your OP, dds, reminded me of ds (now a year). (I'll leave out the first month which was a very complicated situation of mixed feeding, trying to establish excl bf and eventually succeeding). He (once excl bf) had a fairly slow weight gain pattern - always looked healthy but quite skinny (just like your dd) - and fed really a lot for quite a long time - longer than a lot of the books etc. talk about - I think he was 3 months or even more before the feeds started getting shorter. The feeds got shorter a long time before they got less frequent, but really, short feeds make all the difference.

I think what I'm really trying to say is hang in there, it will get better :) In your situation I would go with the flow re. feeding, but also try using the sling whenever possible - this will also free you up for some time with dd1, walks, etc.

Emma, she sounds fine, but if I was your HV, I would still want to keep an eye on the weight, but I would be reassured by all the other normal signs of a healthy baby....weight is only a small part of the story. If she continues not to gain, then I think further checks would be justfied...but I expect she will start to gain from now on.

Just wondering dds if she might settle if swaddled and maybe place item that smells of you next to her?

Thanks for all the encouragement and suggestions. Yes, Gracesmum, I tried the swaddling in the first week but she hated it. Maybe I should try again now, but it doesn't seem a good idea when it's so hot.
Tiktok, I agree completely and I'm quite prepared to have her with me all the time if that's what she needs, but I'm still worried that she's crying because of hunger and not just because she wants to be near me. She was weighed again today and only put on 3oz in a week, plus she has started being unsettled on the breast and made one of my nipples sore. I've had a lactation consultant from LLL come and watch a feed and check the latch so I'm fairly sure it's OK. HV says it might be wind making her unhappy - could this contribute to poor weight gain? I'm reluctant to give infacol so HV has suggested a homeopathic remedy, but all the crushing tablets/dissolving/sterilising etc is a hassle I can do without unless it's really going to solve the problem. Does wind really make that much difference to weight gain?