Five months of ebf feels like a complete failure!

[YouMaySayImADreamer]

Sorry for the negative nature of the title and the incredible length of this post, but feeling incredibly disheartened and depressed. I have posted a few times about my 5mo ds's halted weight gain and my worries about what to do. Having just returned from seeing someone from the infant feeding clinic at the hospital, I am even more depressed.

Having it drilled into me that breast is best and having done my own research, I was determined to ebf for the advised six months of ds's life to give him the best possible start. I took in all of the advice on how to make bf a success - no bottles or dummies for the first four weeks, feed on demand, no formula top ups, be led by my baby. I've done it all. Yet for the most recent two of the five months that I have ebf him, he has gained only two ounces, and that was at the start of the two month period I am talking about. Far from breast is best, and the advice to trust my body to feed my baby, I feel like my body has failed him for two months. The big chubby baby born on the 75th percentile has dropped to the bottom of the 25th percentile. I feel like he'd have been better off on formula.

I struggled with bf at first. I didn't have any major problems technically, but I struggled with feeding in public, and with feeling trapped and exhausted by two hourly feedings day and night. I perservered though and turned a corner around the three month mark when things had got better...DS started feeding 3-3.5 hourly during the day, and dropped a night feed, gradually followed by another night feed until he was sleeping through from around 9pm-5am. I got a little bit more time to express meaning I could have a bit of bit of freedom back. I didn't enforce any of this, he did it all himself.

Now with advice, I am at a situation where I am having to feed as often as possible in the day (back to 2-2.5 hours), and wake him three hourly at night to feed, at 11pm, 2am, 5am, and then he usually asks for a feed at 7am. As his feeds take about 45 minutes, I am getting two hours of sleep at a time. At my appointment today, I was advised to also express between feeds and give him this milk to top him up. I asked a few times why I couldn't just feed directly instead of expressing (which I find a pain in the ar$e), but she couldn't seem to give me a straight answer and kept reiterating to do the expressing. So I am now exhausted again and probably won't be able to get out the house between expressing and feeding for the foreseeable future. I have asked continually if they think there is a problem with my supply causing it, but I am continually told no, but then told to feed him as often as possible and express in between. I have seen my GP who has referred me to a paediatrician, and was also advised today to see a paediatrician, but when I ask why and what might be wrong, noone gives me a straight answer. The night feeds seem to have helped a bit as he had put 5 ounces on at his appointment today, but it has been with a lot of hard work at a stage when bf was meant to have got a lot easier and should be established.

I know they need the full picture and I am probably just being over sensitive, but I feel like I have been grilled for weeks by hvs, bf support workers, and now the feeding clinic on ds's feeding habits and what I am doing with him. All I have done it follow their guidelines. Today I repeated something that the hv had said about how ds must be getting enough through the day if he is sleeping though and how surely he would wake if he was hungry, and she replied "well clearly not" in quite a patronising tone. I then felt pressurised into letting her observe a feed. I don't enjoy lopping my now saggy, white, stretch marked boobs out in front of anyone especially when I felt those days were behind me, and quite honestly, it was humiliating. DS was thrashing round because let down wasn't coming quick enough (probably due to me having someone staring so intently at him on my boob), and then he fed for 40 minutes with her staring at me and not letting me take him off when I felt he had finished. He kept falling asleep and he literally hadn't swallowed anything for about ten minutes, so I took him off a few times feeling that he was just using me as a dummy, and she kept making me put him back on even though he wasn't eating anything. It would have been worth the embarrassment if she had talked me through the feed to help me recognise patterns, or explained why I had to keep a non feeding baby hanging off my nipple, or given me an evaluation of how she felt he was feeding afterwards, but after her not saying anything, I had to ask what she had got from watching him feed.

And at the end of it all, another weigh in on Friday is looming, and still no guess even at why I am doing everything I have been told, but bf is not working. When things were going well I had decided to go beyond my original 6 month target and continue some bf until a year, but now I am thinking of just stopping completely at 6 months. It also puts me off ebf my next baby because babies do not seem to be able to thrive off me for some unknown reason. If there is still no weight gain on Friday, the answer I seem to be getting off everyone now is to wean early, which is frustrating just three weeks off the recommended 6 month mark.

I look around me at all my friends and family who have formula fed, I look at their happy, thriving babies who are putting on weight week by week. I watch them handing their babies over to someone else to look after whilst they have a night out or a night off, and i honestly think, why am I doing this? Don't really know why I am posting, but hoping someone can remind me why maybe...

After watching the feed what did she say? I presume she checked for tongue tie and advised switch feeding/compressions etc?

Didn't want to read and run, so here I am. I know the trapped feeling that EBF can bring, I'm 8 months in to feeding ds2 and he still wakes during the night for feeds and a lot during the evening too....imagine newborn cluster feeding. He won't take a bottle either, so no relief for me at all! Some days I don't mind, other days I am so tired I can't think straight and then other days I don't want to do it any more.

I don't know what the answer is for you, but I have started using some formula in a cup during the day so that I can at least pop out on my own occasionally. I was anti formula in the sense that I wanted to give ds a virgin gut but now, all I really want is a break, but to be able to keep bf too. Hence the odd bit of formula. If its not for you, I would suggest some fenugreek to help your supply maybe? Not that it sounds like a supply issue, but it may have a placebo effect or something for you.

Good luck x

I didn't want to read &run...

You've done way better then i ever managed to. I really think mums need to realise ff or food within weeks of a baby being 6 months isn't failure!!

I think your remarkable, many would have given up ages ago. Im sure someone with better & more informed advice will be along soon.

Because your his mum.

Because your a hero!

Well done for sticking it this long! You are most certainly not a failure.

Some babies are ready for weaning earlier. Six months is a guideline not a target.

Some babies start off chunky and end up skinny.

All this stress will be inhibiting your milk supply no doubt. I can't believe the health visitor put you through that, what a bitch!

All this will be destroying your trust in yourself, but try and listen to yourself. If you feel like giving him some solids try it and see what happens. If you want to wait, do you feel he can carry on for 3 weeks?

I'm sorry your going through this without seeing everything i wouldn't dare say there is nothing wrong but actually I have known several women (including myself) going through very similar bullshit and all our babies are still here

Hi maja00, she did suggest switch feeding when I asked why I needed to keep him asleep on my nipple, and to be fair she helped with the compressions which I had been doing anyway but not quite right. Probably being a bit stroppy to be fair because I just feel like I shouldn't need this much help and intervention at this stage when I've followed all the guidelines to the letter. She didn't check for tongue tie though - should she have?

Hi dooit, thanks so much for sharing your experience. I am exactly the same about the 'virgin gut' thing. I just want to get him to that 6 month mark, and after that he would have to have some formula anyway because I am returning to work. But now I just think if my milk is that rubbish, is there any point me continuing any feeds after 6 months. I have heard of the fenugreek, but where do you get it from?

Thanks so much shelly, really appreciate the support

Oh what a horrendous way you've been treated!

I completely understand why you feel so despondent, it's no wonder when what is supposed to be support offered becomes expectation forced onto you.

I'm guessing this is your first baby? The anxiety and pressure around baby weight can be awful (I experienced it first time round).

HVs have a chart and boxes to tick and some I think fear they are not doing their job if they don't try to make babies fit onto their chart and into the boxes. Many HVs are sensitive and helpful, some are not. I'm not HV bashing mine is fab but partly because by the time I got to DC3 I had the confidence to trust my own instincts as to her weight gain and development and have only taken her to be weighed twice. There are many more indicators of baby development than weight gain. Losing weight is something to be concerned about but your baby isn't losing, just not gaining.

Take time to think whether it would make you happier to introduce formula, it's not a crime to mix feed or fully ff your baby. If it eases your anxiety and you want to then fine. If you don't want to then think about stepping off the weighing clinic merry go round. You don't have to take him to any weigh ins - bottom of 25th centile is not a starving to death baby. He may never have been meant to be a chubby 75th centiler and has found his own level over time, my DD2 was 9th centile.

It is concerning that you are being referred to health professionals by other health professionals without them being able to explain why, take courage, stand your ground, take time out of their requirements for weighing - at least unless they can show your baby will suffer if you don't - and decide what you feel most comfortable with. You have absolutely done your very best for your baby and should feel no guilt whatever you decide.

You are not alone in your experience and while I have bf all my babies I always say it is a big commitment - one that most of us question at times but is ultimately fulfilling and I think, worthwhile. My bf counsellor when I had similar problems with DD1 said "she feeds as if she were eating in her favourite Chinese restaurant, in the company of those she loves best, she savours it and eats her meal one grain of rice at a time" She's a healthy active 4 year old now, still on the small side and still quite a picky eater but clever, good at concentrating and lots of fun.

Please don't lose faith in yourself OP.

If he has put 5oz on (in how long?) at this appointment, then why are they asking you to start expressing too when upping the feeds seems to be helping?

How is your baby? Alert? Meeting milestones? Happy?

I'm surprised no one has raised the possibility of tongue tie in a baby with slow weight gain who takes a long time to feed. There's some more info here milkmatters.org.uk/2011/04/15/hidden-cause-of-feeding-problems-however-you-feed-your-baby/

My DS had a tongue tie that was corrected very early. Although he had no feeding problems afterwards, he went from 75th centile at birth to 25th at 4 months - nothing wrong with him or me, just the way he was supposed to be. He stayed on or just under the 25th until he was about 2.5 years old when he had a growth spurt up to the 50th.

Thanks all so much for your replies ans words of support, it means a lot. To try and answer a few of your questions...

Herrena - thank you - my gut feeling is that he is fine and that i just want to block it all out and carry on for the remaining three weeks, but its got to the point where i dont know whether thats in his best interests anymore or put him at any risk. Im not saying its not, but i just dont know.

Moon, thank you so much, it is my first baby and i didnt have any previous knowledge of bf so it does all worry me. Youre right though, i sortve wish id never been so vigilant with his weight because he is otherwise totally fine, but now im on the merrygoround i dont feel i can step off incase there turns out to be something wrong. I really want to continue if its best for him and because on some level i do enjoy it even though i have found it challenging, but the fact that hes not thriving makes me wonder if theres a point, because doing whats best for him was my main motivation.

Noble - thanks - he put 5oz on in 13 days since the last weighing but i have really upped the night feeds in the past 5 days so im fairly confident that this is whats made the difference. I dont know why i need to express too, it seems too much. He is great in himself, very very active, content, can roll both ways, trying to crawl, and everyone comments how smiley he is.

Maja00 - thanks for that - have had a look at the link and so many of those symptoms fit. He takes ages to feed, only really swallows at the initial let down which i actually mentioned at the feeding clinic today funnily enough, then stays on for ages not really taking anything but screaming and looking for the nipple again when i try to take him off, windy, and had very bad colic. The only thing is he gained quite well for the first 3 months which he wouldnt have would he?

Hello! Just wanted to offer a viewpoint from a formula feeding mother who tried her best to breast feed and managed just seven weeks! I just couldn't do it, my son was losing weight, I was so exhausted I fell asleep through every night feed and we were both miserably unhappy. I switched to formula and have NEVER looked back. My sn is thriving, happy, a fabulous weight and now, at 14 months, eats everything in sight and would live off every kind of fruit and veg if I let him. He is very rarely ill. Just want to give you another perspective. You've done wonderfully to get this far! It is ok to stop if you want to.

Does he seem hungry? I'm guessing not if you have to wake him for night feeds. It may be just that he's not meant to be big.
My daughter had VERY slow weight gain when I was ebf her. Born at 7lbs12oz, she barely weighed 17lbs at one year of age and was still in 3-6months clothes. But she was just meant to be dinky I think, as even when she went onto solids at 6 months, she didn't really gain much weight. I continued to bf until 14 months. My HVs weren't too bothered. DD slept through the night (7-7) from 14 weeks and I argued she couldn't possibly be hungry if she was sleeping like that. She was never one for big feeds and just didn't seem to really get hungry. In fact even now at 3.5 yrs she rarely asks for food, but does eat well at mealtimes.
A lady at my Mums' group had a daughter that was very similar, except she had an awful HV (sounds like yours) who basically insisted she switched to formula and do you know what.. she still hardly gained any weight. Again, just a child who was meant to be petite.
Do what YOU feel is right. And if you do stop bf, 5 months is WONDERFUL and you're so close to 6 months, please don't feel you've failed at all.

OP my DS (now 4 m

I have not read the replies yet. But, just wanted to share my own experience and thoughts.

DD was a small baby, she struggled to stay on her centile, and dropped off the chart. I was, like you, made to feel like I was doing something wrong. It was suggested that my baby was failing to thrive. I felt that there were no answers to help me find out what was going wrong, what I could do to fix it, and I felt like a fucking awful mother for somehow not being able to produce the right amount of milk to sustain my baby. I bypassed the HV and went to the GP who said that baby seemed fine, keep an eye, but he said his concerns would be based around 1) is baby happy? 2) is baby passing normal wee and normal poo at the right level? 3) is baby meeting milestones around the right time? 4) is the baby sleeping reasonable well (for a baby!) If the answers to those questions particularly 1-3 were 'yes', then there is little wrong in his opinion.

By 5 months, I weaned. I am not suggesting you do that. But, the HV was very 'no you can't do that' and told me to give a bottle. I refused (well, actually DD refused). She had been dropping her weight, then wobbling on her line from about 3-4 months and by 5months I was so worried I felt weaning was the best way to ensure she got what she needed.

THEN. I saw a locum HV. She said to me 'babies are not always born at their 'normal' weight in terms of the charts. Some babies are born on the highest centile, as their mother has a larger womb to accommodate them. They can drop a significant amount of weight until they find their own natural size. Some babies are born very small, as that is the space they have to grow in, and in the following 6 months, they shoot up the centiles. That does not make them babies with weight issues. She told me that this is most likely what is happening with my baby, that DD had found her own level and that was lower than the chart. She said basically 'watch this space' and review my fears when she was 5. She said 'she is not going to be a tall well stocked child, she is going to be a slight, slender child as that is how she is built'. She was so reassuring that actually there were no answers as there was in fact NOTHING wrong, and that I didn't need to be trying to feed more, I should continue as I was until 6 months if I felt able (but also, that it was ok to start weaning at 5 months if I chose to do so).

DD is now 7yrs old. Just. She is a slight, slender build, very muscular, extremely healthy, hardly gets sick, eats like a horse, and is in around 6-7yr old clothing.

I EBF for 5 months, weaned her slowly, and stopped BF fully at 10 months, which was her choice not mine. She was ready then.

Please remember to take care of yourself too.

Oops, posted too soon, apologies. (Stupid phone!)

OP, my DS (now 4 months) had a posterior tongue tie and has always gained weight well, despite feeds taking 90 mins and me being in excruciating pain at the beginning! He has always been on the 91st percentile. Had it snipped at 8 weeks and pain is much better and feeds are 10-15 mins long now.

Just thought this info might help. I think it's worth exploring the possibility of tongue tie - there are videos on you tube showing how to spot a posterior tongue tie, which are worth a look.

You have done so well and can't believe how your HV has treated you. Good luck.

I weaned ds at 23 1/2 weeks because i thought he was ready - he'd just started falling off the 0.4th line.

He was on 3 meals a day within a week, choosing food or boob quite clearly by his cry/behaviour. He was over the 9th at 7 months, an will be weighed again next week at 8 months.

Bf babies don't follow nice neat lines. They do all kinds of odd, unique things that HCPs can't get their heads around. It's because they're odd, unique little creatures. If he's alert, meeting milestones and producing wet and dirty nappies, he's fine.

Have you considered the possibility that he's picking up on all the stress they're putting you under?

Oh, and sack off the expressing. Why wash a pump and bottle when you've got a nice clean boob?!

YouMay - I think that pattern of weight gain/slowing can be quite common, as in the first few months you produce loads more milk than your baby needs (hence leaking, engorged boobs etc) and by 3-4 months most women find it settles down and their breasts don't feel full or leak anymore and your supply adjusts to demand. Possibly if the baby wasn't removing milk efficiently, supply might have stopped meeting his demand at that point? I am no expert though.

Just wanted to say well done, you've achieved something the majority of mothers cannot/ don't

Hi all

Apologies that I am just returning, but I have been for a few appointments which I wanted to see what the outcome was first. I can't thank you all enough for sharing your experiences, it certainly helps to hear I am not alone. I will try to answer as many of your questions as possible.

So I went back for a second appointment at the infant feeding clinic and saw someone else who was fantastic..I had a much better experience this time. She observed a feed again and checked for tongue tie (didn't have one thankfully). On the second visit he had gained another few ounces in three days which she said was ok, so 8 in total since I'd stepped up the day feeds and added some night feeds. She basically said that he seemed perfectly healthy to her, she didn't think anything was wrong at all and asked me what my gut feeling was, which was that he was fine (she agreed). She said as I had already been referred to the paed by the GP just to make sure, she would chase it up for me, just to put my mind at rest that there was nothing underlying going on. She said to continue as I was since he only had a few weeks until he was six months when I'm planning to wean him, and that she was happy that she didn't need to see me again.

So I had his appointment with the paediatrician today. He was weighed and measured and had gained another 4 ounces in the past 5 days. That is a total of 9 ounces in the 12 days since I upped his feeds...not a massive amount, but I'm happy considering that he'd previously put 2 ounces on in the previous 8 weeks. She checked him and agreed as everyone else who's seen him (HV, GP, feeding clinic) that he is alert, happy, healthy and advanced in terms of milestones. However she then goes on to say that I need to start topping him up after each bf with some formula, because my breastmilk is no longer enough to sustain him. I really don't want to do this as I had planned to ebf him for six months as per the guidelines, and with only two weeks to go, I would be gutted. I know it sounds silly, but that was my goal and I am so close.

She explained that as he was born big, he has a big frame which needs more calories to sustain it than I can give him, and that the answer until he is fully on solids, is formula. When i asked about just offering more feeds for extra calories, she basically said that I would end up feeding more and more often, and I couldn't be feeding him every hour. However, his head circumference is still on the 75th centile as it was as birth (I come from a family of large headed people!), and his length still on the 50th as at birth, so he seems to be growing in other directions at the same rate. Is it not therefore a possibility that like my partner, he is meant to be tall and slim?

I am returning to work at the start of September when I will need to give him some formula during the day (will continue bf when I am with him). So I was planning to start introducing a little bit of formula ahead of my return at the same time as I introduce solids. I'm feeling a bit sad about this as I'd like to carry on giving only breastmilk, but I won't be able to express enough for when I am at work. For this reason, I really want him to have nothing but breast milk for the first six months. She wants to see him again in four weeks and said she is expecting to see a big weight gain. But I am thinking of ignoring her advice, and going with what the infant feeding clinic said about carrying as I am ebf with a few extra feeds until he is six months. I was thinking that if I am quite intensive with feeding for these two weeks which I think I can manage, that should sustain him. I figure that another two weeks won't harm him, or am I putting him at risk?

I ebf my DS and frankly it was a bit of a nightmare and he was an easy feeder. He fed every 2 hours round the clock from he was born- I was literally on my knees due to sleep deprivation. I couldn't give him formula as he had problems with his digestion so it really wasn't an option. His weight started to fall off just after 5 months - basically because he was ready for weaning. I continued to carry on and he basically started feeding all the time and I eventually cracked at 5 and a half months. I felt a total failure because I hadn't made it until 6 months.

I look back now and think what a fecking idiot I was in my sleep deprived state. 2 weeks is nothing and if he was ready for food why was I witholding it just because pyschologically I needed to get him to some magic 6 months without anything but breastmilk.

When he did give him his first bottle of formula at 6 months I was
convinced something awful would happen- like he would spontaneously combust (and I actually am not anti-formula at all - I had some in when Ds was born just in case). Turns out he loved it and all was well and I got some sleep although I continued to bf until he was 11 months.
What I'm trying to say is that it becomes some huge enormous issue to you when it really really isn't and in a couple of months you will barley remember why you were so worked up about it.

Thank you Aidan! [Smile] Glad i dont sound like im being ridiculous!

Yep, all exactly as you said. It is only the second time hes been measured for length and head circ, the first was not long after birth, but nevertheless, he is still on the same centile which suggests he is otherwise growing.

The infant feeding clinic are the most experienced and knowledgable out of everyone ive seen in terms of bf, which is why im more inclined and comfortable to go with their original advice.

Sorry tobias, just seen your post. I know you are probably right and two weeks is nothing, and that i have probably built it up in my head, especially as ebf like you say is not the easier thing to do even when it is technically working well. I am coping with the extra feeds though and as long as he remains happy and healthy, i think i mayaswell reach the original goal because ive read so much about the long term benefits of ebf up to six months...

Just to add, im sure those benefits are achieved give or take a few weeks, i am just one of these people who once i have something in my head...

I had similar with my ds & I was confident I was doing the right thing ebf him. He was alert, happy etc. I gave up going to the HV. They kept telling me to give formula or wean etc & I wasn't prepared to.
I found the www.kellymom.com website very helpful. There are even growth charts for ebf babies versus ff & handy hints on increasing milk supply (flapjacks/porridge oats - yum!)
Don't limit your calorie intake & do what your doing as it sounds like its working.
Btw well done for ebf so far, that's a great achievement!