Advice for friend who is introducing bottles because she 'doesn't have enough milk'.

[edam]

Friend of mine has an eight-week old baby. Has been breastfeeding but thinks she doesn't have enough milk on the left side because baby struggles and squirms and cries when feeding from the left. She's now introduced three bottles a day (partly to help with sleep).

I know this is probably all wrong... She asked me for advice so what should I be telling her? Btw, suggested b/f counsellor but nothing in our town, would have to go to nearest city and it's a big hassle for a new mother.

Just for the record my hv advised me to start slids at 4 1/2 months (he's 8 months now.)

Our consultant pead does not think the tongue is involved in feeding (this is why he refuses to have tongue snipped if they are clearly affecting feeds)..... so please.... all doctors are not god !!! They can be wrong!

Us,interesting what you say about the WHO and Ukraine.
My dh is one of the few foreigners that has been working there in recent years and does worry rather about a dependency culture.
No doubt however that soil and therefore food and dairy products are affected.
I wanted to go with him to the area but he wouldn't let me.

I would never assume that an HV or paediatrician would know what they were on about re weaning or indeed many other issues,one being the area in which I specialise,but I'd better not get into that here.

When I say 'there'I mean Chernobyl not just general Ukraine.

The fighting the brest is natural. Babies do this for lots of reason, sometimes its just coping with the letdown or settling down to something utterly and blissfully relaxting for babies.

People (and myself included at the start) seem to worry so much about 'not having enough milk'. They look at babies being bottle fed and compare the quantities. They aren't used to seeing breastfeeding go around them, seeing babies 'stuggling at the breast'. It's so sad. I've been through this but luckily stuck with it and have got so much out of it for me and my DS.

My advice to her, if she wants to carry on, would be to get rid of the formual feeds as a matter of urgency. I would personally try stopping the formula totally but is she is sure her baby wont have enough milk, she could use it more as a temporary top-up and express lots until her supply builds up.

Try to be reassured that the struggling on the breast is natural and normal and if it upsets her take solice in the look of blissful contentment that her baby gets when he's settled into the feed and when he comes off with that lovely 'milk drunk' state.

She can rebuild her milk supply if she acts now and if she worrys about it in the future, it is quality not qaulity with breast milk. When I had this concern I used to get my DS weighed. I thought he'd had nothing but tiny amounts of milk yet he had jumped almost TWO centiles when I had him weighed.

The key with breastfeeding, when you've got the basics sorted, is to to trust it. Bottle feeding has been a common practive for 50 years max. Breastfeeding has been a commom practive for MILLIONS of years since the dawn of humanity. There is no instructions or pretty packagaing but that's because you don't need it.

Sorry Mumsnetter and Edam for yet another empassioned post on this but I have just got so, so much out of it and this was after a very hard start. Posts like this just make me sad.

TLM, La Leche League and the other vol orgs concerned with supporting breastfeeding do not charge a fee.

I belong to NCT and we never charge.

I don't think it can have been someone from LLL who saw you, or if she was from LLL, then she must have been seeing you in some other capacity.

I need to say this, in case other people think they will be charged a fee for seeing someone.

Tiktok, I think we were charged because she was a consultant affiliated with La Leche. She was definitely part of it though because we got her name through LL. Either way she was really helful - I was going to give up if she had not helped me.

No one tells you how to breastfeed in hospitals. After my birth I came to the ward and asked the nurse on duty if she could show me how to breastfeed. She looked at her watch,tutted and said "Do you want SMA or Cow and gate" I burst into tears. My son went hungry for the 4 days I was in hospital (this was a MAJOR London hospital). I could not believe the attitude. They plaster the walls with "breast is best" posters and yet they have not got a clue in practice.
I still get upset thinking about it now. It was awful and I'm sure it affected the way that I bonded with him in the early days.

I persevered though and did not feed him anything else until he was 7 months old, but I felt such a failure in the first few weeks and was in tears pretty much constantly. Thank heavans for all these organisations - they are marvellous.

I don't think anyone should be in a rush to feed their baby solids - what's the point if they can barely sit up, never mind use their tongues to masticate the food. There is also too mch pressure from health visitors who clearly often have not got a clue. I went in to see mine when DS was not even 5 months old and she told me I should be feeding him lots of chicken???? I burst out laughing and she got very cross. The amount of conflicting information they give is hilarious.

A really good book that I found very useful in the weaning process was Annabel Karmel's book. It's about £15 but worth it.

Cheesey,never apologise for passionate posts about breastfeeding.
We need them,lots of them!!

I think you have seen a lactation consultant in private practice, TLM, not a La Leche League person, even though she could also be in LLL and even though they referred you to her.

Whatever.....glad she helped you and at the 'help' in hospital.

You might want to write and tell them how poor they were.....?

Yes! She was a lactation consultant. I did think about writing but I had quite a lot on my plate at the beginning so when I finally got round to it I felt it was too late by then. Not very good really. Perhaps I should still do that?

TLM2, your experience in hospital sounds terrible I don't think it's too late to write and complain - the same nurse could be there dishing out the same 'advice'.

Hum, at the risk of hijacking, but while tiktok is around... I have come across lots of women who have started off bfing, but have had big babies and have been advised by mw/hv's to supplement with formula as their supply "can't keep up with their hungry babies". I have always thought this was a bit rubbish, that if they feed lots, surely their supply will be stimulated to feed the baby as much as it needs, and in all cases it has led to a swap to ffing before too long. But I don't have the confidence to say so - but if MNers can tell me otherwise I would be grateful (and sorry for the hijack )

2Happy, of course it's rubbish, and of course it often leads to full formula feeding, as you've observed.

If it happens again, say to your friends, 'your milk suppky is driven by the baby - big babies feed more often and they take more milk, and this makes sure you make what they need. Giving bottles makes you make less....are you sure the midwife told you to give formula?'

So it doesn't matter how big the baby, the milk supply should keep up perfectly well?
Thank you Tiktok. My ds wasn't big enough for me to know first hand and so many mw/hv's seemed to be saying it that I started to doubt myself. I shall be militant from now on

Just a thought but wondering if the advice re supplementing is being miss interpreted by some people, as a friend with a large baby was recently advised to top up for the 1st few days with formula, but only until her milk came in!

No, still is crap advice, I'm afraid, Frizbe.

So why do so many mw/hv's tell people to do it? (I think that's a rhetorical question by the way! )

The research shows that babies given formula supplements early on (ie in first week) are three times more likely than babies who have not had supps to be fully formula fed by the end of just 2 weeks.

Hardly any babies really need formula before the milk comes in - it is disgracefully ignorant of midwives and others to advise it, in all but a very few instances. If the baby is really in need of something (maybe he is not able to remove the colostrum, for instance, 'cos of being v. sleepy or unable to latch) then the mother can hand express colostrum and give it to him.

Midwives and HVs who suggest supplements without good cause are poorly trained or wilfully not reading the literature :(

Tiktok, can stress prevent milk production?

There's no evidence that it could, and no reason why it should....it can interfere with letdown, however, temporarily. The explanation I read about this is that adrenalin and other hormones we release when we are very scared or in pain interfere with oxytocin.

Occasionally, I hear from mothers who have had a bad shock (eg a sudden and major bereavement, or involvement in a car crash) and have found a 24 hour crisis in getting milk to the baby - the molk just won't come out. It then disappears and things get back to normal.

I have no patience with books or healthcare professionals that tell mothers worried about their milk supply that they must try to relax in order to make more milk. It's not helpful at all, and it misses the point. If you need to make more milk, you have to 'ask' your body to make it by feeding more often.

Thanks Tiktok!

The best thing for making more milk IME is to stay in bed or on the sofa for a day (ideally 2), move as little as possible and feed your baby whenever they seem interested.

P.S. My hospital were militant about me bf and incredibly supportive even tho i was unsure, so i maybe got lucky and thank goodness as me an ds (10 weeks) both love it now :o. My HV also advised formula during the night so i could get more sleep- madness as night feeds ensure milk production keeps going (the milk production hormones work best at night). Luckily i ignored her - the sleep deprivation is worth it (that's really saying something!)

I also had a very positive experience re breastfeeding with both my community midwife and the hospital. It was their default position IYKWIM - it was assumed that you would breastfeed. I had real problems with my first child, from latching on, through constant demands for feeding to recurrent mastitis, but the support I got from the MWs and HV was fantastic. Nobody suggested I change to formula. They are not all bad! My second was a breeze!

Hi Edam,

I agree totally with your empathic approach for your friend. It is just awful when others come in all heavy handed and 'right'. It is really difficult to breastfeed for many women and so much contradictory advice.

If she has asked for your advice then it is easy to go back and say you posted it on here and these are all the replies.

I would say that after reading all of them she needs to do what is best for her and her baby and this is her decision.

I found it really tough - esp given all the hormones flying around at the time!

My saving grace was a good friend who reccommended a book and cd before I gave birth by Clare Byam Cook 'What to expect when your're breastfeeding... and what if you can't?'. It became my bible and I made my dh watch it to so he could help me out.

From personal experience in my little NCT group we all agreed that our babies fed better from one side versus the other. I def had one bigger boob!

She advises the following on babies 'fussing' at the breast...

'Reasons foe it happening are numerous:

1. from the ouitset youyr baby finds it hard to larch on, and cries as soon as s/he gets near your breast, head wobbling. Ther mlore you push your baby to your breast the more s/he pulls away

Cause - most likely you are pushing your baby's head (rather than shoulders) toward your breast and this is paniking him/her. The hungrier s/he is the worse it will be Answer - take your time latching the baby on at the start (she shows how to in dvd, and method is different to NCT method, could try a nipple shield

1. Your baby latches on well but almost immediately pulls away crying

Cause - likely that your milk flow is too fast Answer - many suggestions on how to do huis but one of the best is using a nipple shield

1. Baby starts well and cries pulling off toward the end of a feed.

Cause : likely to be milk flowing too slowly or you don't have enough milk. answer - check babies latched on - if they are at a bad angle it can restrict the milk flow, check baby not too tired as this can make it hard from them to feed effectively as they are learning too, check weight gain - if okay it is not poor milk production, if it really is milk production you prob need to devote a bit of time to it. - it can take min 24hrs of effort, you will make it tough for yourself if you start top up bottles as breasts will get confused - you don't need that milk so we'll stop producing.feed longer anfd more frequently to boost the supply. aim not to feed for longer than an hour and as often as every 2 hrs, try using breast pump at the end of feeds 4 Your baby cries and pulls off frequently throughout the feed Cause : likely to be discomfort wind, colic or reflux

1. Your baby has breast fed well for weeks but suddenly and for no apparent reason cries and fusses at the breast

Cause : the most difficult to answer but sometimes is what you have eaten, something strong like garlic or chili - muddle through as best you can.