"Big babies need supplementing with Formula milk as breastmilk is not enough for them" Discuss ....

[Ghosty]

I thought I would throw this into the forum as I have just come off the phone from a friend who came out with this statement ...
I don't know the friend that well, she is a nanny that I met at playgroup and she has just had her first baby ...
Anyway ... she was telling me that she had to give up breast feeding at 3 weeks because her dd just couldn't settle and latch on and was always fretting ... she wasn't putting on weight etc so my friend thought it best to cut her losses and give up ...
She said she was heartbroken about it but there was nothing else she could do and she has now come to terms with it (baby is now 11 weeks).
I commiserated and made the right noises of sympathy etc ...
I asked her how the transition to bottles was and she said "Very easy ... but then she had been having formula from the first day."
When I asked her why that was, she said, "Well, the midwife told me to because she was a big baby (she was 9lbs 4oz) and breastmilk alone isn't enough for big babies and they need supplementing ... "

I was a bit speechless ... I didn't (and wouldn't) tell my friend that the midwife was talking rubbish because I didn't want to upset her especially as she has felt so sad about stopping ... BUT surely THAT (being given formula from day one) was why the baby could never settle on the breast and my friend could never get it sorted??????

I had a big baby (10lbs) and I had enough milk and didn't have to supplement in the early days at all ... I was given bad advice at 6 weeks, gave bottles and had to give up a couple of weeks later but that's another story ...

In 3 weeks (I hope) I will be having my 2nd baby in the same hospital as my friend (and it is likely to be another whopper) and I really really REALLY hope to breastfeed for as long as I can ... I DO NOT want to be told to supplement from day one ... and I DO NOT want to be told at 6 weeks (like last time) that because of a growth spurt I needed to supplement ...

SO ... please someone tell me that even if I have a big baby and if I do it right I WILL have enough milk for it??????

AND ... who thinks the midwife was giving bad advice?????

Over to you ....

Dd was 10lb 2oz at birth, is now 5 months, and has had absolutely nothing but breast milk. She's not as big as she might be (considering she was such a big baby, she's now below 25th centile) - BUT she is happy and thriving. Hurray for breast milk!

Yes I do think it was bad advice - I was told with my two who were both huge that they did need more milk, but just to feed more often. I think their blood sugar can drop if they're not fed frequently enough.

Definately BAD advice. I have a number of friends who have had big babies and exclusively breastfed. The largest baby was 12lb2oz. Big babies may feed more but that is not always the case. I think nature can make sure that a baby that is grown by it's mum can be fed by her too. You can do it Ghosty

Very bad advice - you should be okay though as long as you don't have the same midwife. My friend in Christchurch got told that babies need formula because they find colostrum hard to digest!!!!!!!!!and it's gentler on their stomachs!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was speechless, and then recovered enough to swear. Ignore on duty midwives if they seem to disagree with Mumsnet would be my advice - any chance of a laptop in hospital?

Also why is there this belief that big babies have to stay big? A friend had a 10lb baby that is now 15 months and very slender. Another friend had a 6lb baby that is now HUGE. Bigness at birth is no indicator of appetite.

Make a sign that says "Breastmilk only" and pin it to the bassinette. Make sure it says you are only going to breastfeed in your notes. Hospitals in NZ would have to get you to sign off on formula feeds. Make sure your partner is well aware of your preference and if you need to be parted from baby give strict instructions that no formula is to be given.

My midwife was fantastic in this area, but I know someone with the same midwife who says she was told to supplement. I wasn't there and I don't know for sure, but I am pretty sure that she would have said no such thing as the baby had put on heaps of weight. I think (and this is just my opinion, based on nothing more than my own experience) that some mother's claim a healthcare professional told them to stop or to supplement and they say it so often they end up believing it themselves.

My paed has told me to stop twice and I just ignore him, but if I wanted to stop anyway I would probably use the fact that he told me to as an excuse, rather than just say I wanted to stop.

Not sure I'm helping you, or just having a rant, but it's your baby and nobody at all can force you to give formula.

Thanks Musica, Mears and bobthebaby ... what you have all said is what I thought I knew anyway ...
In the 4 years since DS' birth I have learned sooo much (partly thanks to Mumsnet) and I was sure that the 'big babies need formula' thing wasn't right ... and (again thanks to Mumsnet) I really feel that there is no reason for me to give up before the time is right for me and the baby ...
Anyway ... I do have a great independent midwife who is pro breastfeeding and if she is as supportive postnatally as she has been antenatally I think she will be very helpful ...
It just makes me cross that my friend said all this stuff about being heartbroken about not getting the b/fing right and then in the end I am thinking that had the midwife not made her give a bottle on day one she might not have had the problems ... poor thing ... (I say 'might' because I am aware that lots of people have problems and I am not out to make them feel guilty ... )
bobthebaby ... Auckland National Women's Hospital is not as breastfeeding friendly as Christchurch I have been told ... they don't as yet have to sign off formula feeds ... but they are changing policy when they move premises in the middle of the year .... too late for me but I will bear in mind the idea of a sign ... thanks for that

It's absolute c**p! DS1 was 10lb 1oz and I bf him for 12 months. After an initial drop, he sat near the 91st percentile until toddlerhood. No formula top ups required (unless I was out and a sitter was feeding him.)

Hi Ghosty, my baby was the same size as your friend's at birth and was exclusively bf for the first 6 months before we started solids. He stayed on the same percentile line (91st) the whole time, so it can be done! And I didn't spend my whole life feeding either, as people warned me that I would. The midwife's advice is sooo wrong - makes me really cross to hear c**p like that being spouted. Grrr...

My feeling is it takes at least 6 weeks to get breast feeding really well established (IME)

I bf both mine, DD (9.8lb) for months, 5 months exclusively breast milk and I was pg with DS at the same time. She only fed every 4 hours, I was never permanently attached to her during the day. She also slept through from 8 weeks old. DS was 9.12lb , not as big as some of MN's babies, but it didn't harm him me feeding DD when he was in utero!

Perhaps the advice was given because the baby wasn't breastfeeding properly and wasn't getting enough?

My ds was like this. He got himself SOOOO distressed and hungry that it was near impossible to get him to latch on at all nevermind properly. I think if I had given him a bottle of formula just to tide him over until the next feed then tried again when he wasn't so frantic and hysterical then perhaps breastfeeding would have worked for me. As it happens he continued to latch on wrongly and I gave up. My nipples were agony and ds wasn't getting sufficient milk. I think the NW was wrong to suggest it was because he was a big baby though.... but then maybe that was to make her feel better about it as she may have felt like a failure, I know I did and it really upset me. My ds was only 7lb 1oz.

My dd was 9lb 10 at birth and was breastfed until around 5 months - had a nightmare getting her onto bottles otherwise I would have expressed earlier as well. I had fantastic advice in the hospital from the midwives. I found it hard to work out the best latch on position but buzzed for help every time and my boobs were manhanded into position for me! Never had sore nips, mastitis etc etc either.

When dd went through a growth spurt however, I did find that she seemed to be constantly feeding and if she had been willing to take a bottle, I would have been tempted to top her up with formula.

God, just been remembering how HARD those first couple of months were! Amazing how you seem to forget.

For babies who do not latch or feed properly initially, the answer is not formula. Colostrum should be expressed and given to the baby. It is amazing how little colostrum a baby neds to maintain it's suga level. When formula is given in the first few days, the baby tends not to look for feeds and therefore the breasts are not stimulated to produce milk. By expressing colostrum, the baby gets nutrician and the breasts are stimulated. More feeds = more milk.
If a baby does need supplemented (happens sometimes if baby's blood sugar too low), then formula is given by cup so that baby learns to breastfeed properly. I have seen babies over he years who will not entertain the breast once they have had a teat. Babies who breastfeed well however can take a teat without confusion. There are strategies that can be used to help feeding problems without mum being left to feel that her baby is starving. Routine advice to supplement babies just because they are big is wrong. Means baby does not request enough feeds to promote milk production.

I fed my 9lb12oz first baby no bother (totally IGNORING the same advice as your friend had been given which was given by my health visitor!).
I fed her until 4 months (the advice at that time) and continued to feed her until she was overa year, I also expressed enough to feed her when I returned to work part time AND expressed enough to leave inthe freezer when I went on a long-planned trip with my Gran for 8 days when she was 5 months old). If there wasn't enough milk for a big babe, how would people ever feed twins, triplets etc?
You can feed any size baby, and hope you have the confidence to do it this time! Don't let people who dont know about it tell you what to do!

to echo the others Ghosty, you will certainly cope with BF alone, I did/am doing it right this second for both my 9 pond 98th centile boys.
We are mammals, it is what we were designed to do

haven't had time to read it all, so I hope I'm not repeating too much, my ds was 10lbs 1 and he was exclusively breastfed. BUT he latched on like a pro immediately (good job he knew what he was doing), fed like mad (once an hour) until my milk came in, and then I had LOADS of milk, so he had plenty to drink.

I can't see why you would need to supplement unless there was a problem with supply? When mine had growth spurts he just fed more often and I could feel that I had more milk.

(mind you, I ended up sleeping on towels to soak up the pints that leaked all the time, but that is another story )

DS1 was 9lb 2 and between 4 and 6 weeks I did top up his BFs with a couple of oz of formula, but that was against my HVs advice - I think I just didn't have tha hang of BFing at the time.

DD was 9lb 8, she's now 9 weeks and 13lb 2 and I've never done anything but BF.

Incidently, about big babies not necessarily staying that way - DS2 was 8lb 13 but now follows 50th centile and is totaly average!

Ghosty, you'll be fine and make more than enough for your baby! Godd luck for the birth

Complete rubbish.....

My DD's first bottle of expressed milk was at 7 weeks - during that night my husband fed her 16.5 oz of expressed breast milk - before he woke me up and she fed from me (both sides) before she had enough (she was 8 lb 4oz at birth - so not enormous! )

DS1 was big baby, 75th centile+, exclusively breastfed, started solids at 22 wks. He's now 6.5 (yrs), and is 98th centile for height, happy healthy child. No problems.

Hope it goes well for you this time around.

I can't help thinking the advice was pretty poor. ds1 was fairly big at 9lbs 2oz. I exclusively breastfed him for 7 months. I always felt that I did not have enough milk for him as he fed so much, and I was always close to losing my nerve and supplementing with formula. Thanks to excellent advice from bf counsellors I never did, and just kept feeding him whenever he wanted and he kept thriving.

As bf ultimately works on supply and demand, surely the theory is that you can feed big babies, twins, triplets etc simply by putting them to the breast whenever they want? What advice would the midwife have given a mother of twins or triplets, who between them would have wanted to consume more milk than just a single large baby?

Hi,
In my experience i think there is a strong possibility that your friend said what she did to back up her own theory.I am a community midwife and all midwives have to be up to date in their practice and only give advice that is research based (mm ). However I cant believe sometimes what my collegues tell me i`ve (APPARRENTLY ) told some poor women.I sometimes get really upset!Unfortunately we are used as an excuse for the most unbelievable things.I apparently told one lady not to bf because she would be too tired to look after her other child !!
Anyway-just a thought.
Also size most definately plays no part in whether or not one can bf.
Whenever a growth spurt occurrs if you can just feed you baby on demand things usually settle after a day or so.Very few people i believe cannot genuinly bf-others however make a decision, which right or wrong, is best for them and I believe not for others too judge.Oh dear here i go again-better sign off.By the way-there are lots of really good bf support organisations and they all produce good leaflets on your worries.Good luck.

Mooshy, that backs up my theory. I think they are tired and hear what they want to hear and if they don't hear it, they "hear" it anyway IYSWIM.

I definitely see what you mean Mooshy ... but another friend told me yesterday that Auckland Hospital is notoriously bad in the pro breastfeeding stakes due to lack of time/staffing ...
They have recently set up an award system here in NZ for hospitals that are pro b/fing ... Christchurch hospital has won it twice for having this 'sign off for formula' system that bobthebaby refers to in an earlier post ... they also tell you (before the birth) to provide your own formula if you plan to bottle feed as the hospital will only provide it for babies that have special problems.
EvanMom ... I was thinking just that re. twins last night. I have a friend who exclusively b/fed her twin boys for 6 months before even introducing solids ... they never ever had a bottle of anything ... and she fed them at the same time - one on each breast.
They are 10 months ... still breastfeeding but also having cups of EBM as she has gone back to work ... no formula in sight ...
She is a tiny little lady and they are huge bouncing boys!

The sign off thing doesn't always work at ChCh Womens, my friend with twins got asked to sign off the morning after. The friend who got the really bad advice about colostrum was in ChCh Womens. I think they make themselves sound better than they are.

All I can suggest is that you don't let your baby out of your sight. If this means wheeling it to the toilet with you then so be it. I think the worst is when you room in (ha, with 4 other people, its more like warding in)and so if a baby is crying in the night the staff all want to put it in the nursery so you can "get some rest". Don't let them do anything for their convenience. Is it too late to ask to transfer to Birthcare after the birth or whatever it is called so you get your own room and can keep more of an eye on things?

I was never offered formula, but then I always said breastfeeding was going fine (which it was) and talked about allergies a lot. There was one point when bob was sleepy and wouldn't feed. I remember telling them they shouldn't keep the hospital so bloomin hot because it made everyone sleepy. Then I showed everyone the door, mum, dad, midwife and got on with it by myself. On day three the on duty midwife said I was welcome to stay as long as I liked, but did I realise that I wasn't actually using any of their services and would be fine at home. It was kindly said and gave me heaps of confidence.

I think because you are so aware and determined that will shine through and be obvious to anyone even thinking about suggesting formula. Ask your ind. midwife to pop it in your hospital notes in red pen. Even though Nat. Womens is not yet "baby friendly" they will not want to be stuck with the bad publicity.

Finally [[email protected]] is fantastic and you could email her and I'm sure she has some specific suggestions. She is their breastfeeding advocate.

Sorry, I haven't had time to read all of this tonight but can I just add that both of mine were over 10lb and both were breastfed for 6 months with no formula or bottles at all. I was constantly being told by friends, midwife, HV, people in the street, that I would have to give ds formula and someone even told me to put weetabix in a bottle when he was 8 wks old!!!! I just ignored them all. He was always at the top of the growth chart and was very contented, so he was obviously having enough. I was diabetic when pregnant, so he had to have a bit of formula from a cup in the hospital due to low blood sugars, but it did not affect breast feeding at all.

I think everyone had given up lecturing me by the time I had my second baby!

Good luck

Thanks bobthebaby and Mingle ...
Just had a chat with my midwife about it and she said that there is no way she would suggest I gave formula unless that is what I wanted to do ... she is really pro b/fing and will support me 110% .... YAY!!!
PS ... bobthebaby ... I am booked into birthcare but whether I end up there or not is another issue (as am going for VBAC and if I end up with a C/S apparently I have to fight the anaesthetist to be transferred!)

Why does he/she care where/if you transfer Ghosty?