milk, weaning, ezcema, hungry baby.... help please!!! LONG

[princessinapeartree]

Need to canvass the collective wisdom of mumsnet please. DS2 is 15 weeks and quite a big boy (about 15.5lbs). He has also had quite bad ezcema from about 5 weeks all over his head and body - not weepy, just very dry, flaky and itchy poor thing(seeing someone about it in the new year).

So. Up until a week ago he was drinking 5 bottles of 8 - 9 oz formula a day (feeding c. every 3 hours), and sleeping from 6pm to 7am. In the last week though, he has changed, and has been sleeping from 6pm to 9 or 10am, which means his feeds have become more compressed during the day. He has been drinking 9oz or so and then screaming for more within about an hour and a half. But if he has another feed this quickly he gets bad wind and is sicky. Anyway all of this means that he is up and feeding or being jiggled or being cross during most of his waking hours, and not napping for more than 30mins at a time because he is waking himself with hunger.
This morning I woke him up at 9am, gave him a full 9oz bottle, and as he was still sucking, as an experiment offered him another and he took another 4.5 oz, making 13.5oz in total! I'm just waiting for him to throw half of it up since I'm sure his stomach isn't big enough to cope with it.

So my problems - he clearly needs masses of milk (and therefore calories) during the day, but the sheer volume of it is getting difficult for him to digest comfortably. Should I put him on hungry baby milk? My problem with that is that I understand it is just milk which takes longer to digest, but has no more calories, and I think that by doing so he will probably end up on 4 feeds a day (as he is not awake enough to take 5), so won't get the calories he thinks he needs.
He is acting like he needs early weaning, but he is much too young, and anyway because of his ezcema I'd like to leave it as long as possible. But how long is that likely to be if he continues as he is, looking for food all the time?
And why is he sleeping SO long? I know that is a wierd problem, but do you think he may just be having a growth spurt and therefore eating and sleeping a lot? Might he calm down and start waking earlier and eating less?

Sorry for the length of this post - but I know you lot will look at this and see through it much better than I can..... all advice gratefully received!

I know you are Greek! I just didn't want you to feel sensitive about it if you did, I can't help myself, if I don't apologize at least 30 times a day, I go into withdrawal! See, your family wants to give the yogurt!!! Excellent about the probiotics being in the new formula too. Good, now you won't have to worry about dosage. Ask your relatives about the cupping too, I want to know if it is still practiced, or if it is believed to be foolish. Oatmeal baths are wonderful, I give them to my DD all the time and have since she was born. They are fantastic for anything to do with the skin, diaper rash, etc. Changing the formula is a big adjustment, I think unless you really go for the muscle testing, you just can rationalize changing the formula just yet. Your heart will tell you if you listen! I know it is so hard to listen though, especially when you are nervous and want the quick answers for your baby!

Excuse my ignorance but, what is cupping?

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robin- yes, I'm wary of soya as well. didn't know about nut allergy though - another reason not to go o it unless absolutely necessary. It is Aptamil First and Aptamil extra which have probiotics - I think it must be brand new because the two new boxes of Aptamil First which I bought the other day and the Apt Extra I got yesterday say "now with probiotics" all over them, and the box of Aptamil First I had in the cupboard but not used yet, doesn't. That can only have been bought a couple of weeks ago at the most. Interesting big blurb on the side of the box about probiotics as well, which they claim are in breast milk too.
Well he had 9oz of the Aptamil Extra at 9 this morning and has been smiley and happy ever since - what a change! So maybe this will be enough to put off weaning for a bit longer. Thanks all for your help, as ever/.... and Sunchowder, I don't think you have apologised to anyone today yet, can you get a move on please

also soya formula can be worse for teeth - robinw - what are the hormone concerns for boys...?
my son had it for afew months. stopped when 4 months...

Chandra, the cupping thing is a very old traditional healing method. I have a chinese book I purchased the learn about it and my Acupressure Physician taught me how to do it properly on my daughter to relieve coughing and congestion. I puchased small cups at the oriental store for my DD, I lay her down on her stomach and put a bit of olive oil on the skin. With a long tweezer you dip a cotton ball into alcohol, you then light the cotton ball, then place the flaming cotton ball in and out of the cup very quickly, and place the cup on either side of the spine and higher back--it forms a suction (hurts just tiny bit), but it breaks up the congestion and helps her to sleep. I know that if you have treated your children for asthma, you will actually bend them over on the bed and kind of cup your hand and tap them in the same areas to lossen congestion and help them breathe (this is very similar). There are also some simple massage techniques to open up the lymph areas to help things drain also which are not as radical as cupping. The cupping sounds crazy, but it really does work. It can sometimes leave little marks on her back, she calls them pepperonis! The book I purchased is called, Traditional Chinese Medicine, Cupping Therapy by Ilkay Zihni Chirali. Please don't try this wihtout having someone very knowledgable show you how to do it. You would NEVER want to burn your baby and I would never want anyone reading this to go out and do something like this to their child from reading my post. The Greeks practiced this also I believe many 3rd Generation back Europeans and Jews also did this to stop a cold in it's tracks before it settled into the system. This used to be the first course of action when you got a cold and now it sounds so barbaric, doesn't it? Anyway, what can I say? After the cupping is done it is also extemely important to drink plenty of fluids and keep the area covered and free of drafts. I was so desparate to keep my child well that I went crazy reading and investigating many alternate therapies.

I hope I will not upset anyone with what I have said here and againplease, please do not attempt anything like this on your own before you can be taught to do it properly by an expert or oriental physician. This is still practiced mainstream in China for many, many ailmentsnot just congestion. They do it much more intensely and they actually puncture the skin/and or use a needle to let blood out of the system also (remember leeches??). We all find our way somehow.

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happy new year everyone!!!!
Well he had 40 oz of hungry baby milk yesterday, for the first time in many weeks he idn't settle at 6pm but screeched around until 9.30pm, and woke at 8.30am, so less than 12 hours sleep for the first time in about 5 weeks as well.

Oh dear. I think he is trying to tell me something. "baby rice please mummy...".
He is 4 months in exactly a week (born on the 8th). What do you all reckon? Too soon?

Happy New Year ! What a night for him to screech for 3 hours, many sympathies. Sorry, no idea on the solids but bumping this up so that hopefully someone can give some good advice when more people appear back on line.

No, he's not telling you its time for the baby rice, he's telling you that he is going through a developmental stage that means he finds it a bit harder to sleep than usual. I am sure you will get lots of people telling you that if you give solids your baby will sleep because theirs did. However your child has eczema, and what you do now could be the difference between your ds having eczema at 5,10 or 17 or having outgrown it completely.

I had many sleepless nights with my ds, but that was due to the itchiness not being hungry. It's just that when they are itchy having a drink takes their minds off it. Also a child with eczema is losing more fluid through their skin and if the skin is hot they are metabolising food quicker to try to cool down. A child with eczema will be hungrier and thirstier.

I waited until 6 months before solids and his eczema has not gone, but it hasn't got any worse and when you consider its the height of summer here in NZ and he now eats 25 foods that's pretty good. The eczema needs to come first in this decision because if you keep on top of that the sleep will follow. If the eczema gets worse, it won't matter how much baby rice he eats, he won't be able to sleep anyway.

Sorry if I am a little bossy, but having just gone through it I have very strong opinions.

but sleep isn't the problem! (I know I mentioned it in my last post). I really don't care if he sleeps from 6pm to 7am, or 9am, or 8pm to 6 am or whatever - the main problem is that he has been looking for food all day every day. and because his waking hours are so comparatively short, if he shovels in the volumes that he seems to want, he gets uncomfortable and windy etc. And then basically spends all day in a bad mood, chewing his hands and lunging for his next feed...
I understand what you are suggesting (that he is eating to take his mind off his itchiness etc) but if his ezcema was really bothering him that badly, surely he wouldn't sleep for 12 - 15 hours straight? And since being on the hungry baby milk today he has been very smiley and nice between feeds and had good length naps etc (although he has still been taking 9oz every 2.5 - 3 hours).

Hmmmm. Trouble is there are so many variables - normal milk, hungry baby milk, ezcema, weaning, fact that he is a big baby (weighed him today - almost 16 lbs) etc etc etc...

Well....My DD did not have ezcema and I did start her on rice at 4 months which was the recommended time to do that here in the US. I did not put the rice in with her formula in the bottle which is a common practice over here. I first gave it to her on a spoon to which she promptly spit it out and had no sense of swallowing it at all. It was the only way I thought to find out if she was "ready" --I thought if she didn't spontaneously swallow, she wasn't ready (what did I know anyway?) I waited an additional two weeks before trying to give her the spoon again and she swallowed the first bit right down. I gave her the tiniest bits to begin with and then introduced the one food at a time thing with much success.

All of the advice on the thread is good and comes from loving Mom's experiences. BobtheBaby, I can totally understand your post and understand as you have personal experience with this that it does make you feel so strongly.

I must say that adding the rice did not increase my DD's length of her sleeps all that much--she went from waking every three hours to waking every four hours or so and continued to do that until she was almost 1.5 years old!! I never did controlled crying and I never allowed her to sort anything out on her own (which is highly recommended here in the states to help them gain independence and the give your baby the ability to get themselves back to sleep on their own etc.

I ran to her crib like a lunatic for every little sound and she slept with us alot too. It seemed that once we got the formula and foods sorted out, then she started teething--I remember EVERY TOOTH so well (and then they lose them just a few short years later!!! Don't know if rice will be the answer either for your Miles! Who knows! Go with your heart PrincessPea!!

that would disturb him at night also
I dont know anything about exczema so I wont attempt to comment or advise on that bit but FWIW if you take the exczema out of the equation he is obviously very hungry - at the moment the hungry baby milk seems to be doing its job BUT you are having to feed him every 2.5 hours like you say which at his age has got to be very disruptive especially with the other lads to take care of.
The way I see it the decision is whether to keep him happy by feeding him every 2.5 hours the hungry baby milk which may result in him being uncomfortable with the volume he is taking or some baby rice to satisfy his hunger a bit more. Whether baby rice helps him sleep longer or not is not the issue but it may help to satisfy his obvious hunger - how the exczema affects that decision I dont know, thats the bit for you to weigh up I suppose

I hope this isnt too contraversial, Im not telling anyone to wean early just dont want you to feel bad if thats the way you are leaning -I understand the reasons for holding off as close to 6 months as possible but (as a soon to be weaning mum) I think its just one more thing for us to antagonise and feel crap about.

oops deleted a bit before I posted - should have read :
PPH - that is what I thought, the sleep doesnt seem to be a problem (quite the opposite 12 - 15 hours - way to go miles ) and if he was so troubled by his excema he was comfort feeding SURELY that would disturb him at night also

I dont know anything about exczema so I wont attempt to comment or advise on that bit but FWIW if you take the exczema out of the equation he is obviously very hungry - at the moment the hungry baby milk seems to be doing its job BUT you are having to feed him every 2.5 hours like you say which at his age has got to be very disruptive especially with the other lads to take care of.
The way I see it the decision is whether to keep him happy by feeding him every 2.5 hours the hungry baby milk which may result in him being uncomfortable with the volume he is taking or some baby rice to satisfy his hunger a bit more. Whether baby rice helps him sleep longer or not is not the issue but it may help to satisfy his obvious hunger - how the exczema affects that decision I dont know, thats the bit for you to weigh up I suppose

I hope this isnt too contraversial, Im not telling anyone to wean early just dont want you to feel bad if thats the way you are leaning -I understand the reasons for holding off as close to 6 months as possible but (as a soon to be weaning mum) I think its just one more thing for us to antagonise and feel crap about.

I've been thinking about this and can't see that the eczema is affecting his sleep at all. It could be a developmental thing but it sounds to me as if he's just become very hungry in the last week or so.I was hopeful that the hungry baby stuff was going to sort things out for you for a bit, but it sounds as if not. I am expecting to be in a similar situation soon, DS is 16 weeks tomorrow and around 16lbs I think. I have hayfever and DH's side of the family have asthma. I've made the decision that once his sleep gets disturbed, he's taking a lot of milk & generally seems hungry then I will introduce solids. He's been ill and not been feeding much so I've got a bit of breathing space. I totally understand the reasons why it's recommended to wait until 6 months and admire people who do this, but do feel that it's not always realistic, although that is just my personal opinion and I'm sure many people will disagree with me. Good luck with what you decide.

I think you have set it out very well becca and adell - I think the ezcema is a separate thing as well. and although later weaning may be ideal for him, if he is just too big and hungry, then there isn't much I can do. Except wean very sensibly and start on rice and only introduce new things very gradually etc etc.
bobthebaby, I'm going to see a paed derm about his ezcema soon but I know he will just prescribe steroids. Which are probably what he needs to get his skin under control but I'd then like to try and manage him without if at all possible. He's proven to be sensitive to aqueous cream, cetomacragol and diprobase - do you have any more natural recommendations, or any other suggestions? A derm told my mother at a conference last week that Aveeno cream (non prescription and oat and petroleum based) was extremely well tolerated so I may go and search that out but all other advice welcome. And are you a lots of baths or few baths advocate?

I'm a two baths a day girl, smeared first with Emulsifying ointment, they just laid onto a towel (not dried) and just rub in your emollient of choice. Steroids get a bad press, but I have discovered that a couple of days of ones that work (so not 1% hydrocortisone)can give almost normal skin for a month. Some of his bits have only needed 1 application and then nothing since.

I read that the creams and steroids don't work unless the skin is wet as all that happens is you moisturise the flaky bits, which are already dead. I certainly use a lot less cream with a better result since. I liked the Elena nature thingie soap substitute and it smelled lovely. I must get that out again. Weleda Eczema Comp cream is a bit smelly (coal tar) but good for cheeks. I tried Elidel, which I don't know but could be on the NHS and found it to be useless, but maybe because it was so expensive I didn't use enough or something.

If you do wean, can I suggest pear puree with probiotic powder added. I resisted weaning early, but my paed recommends this to the mums that do. It's virtually impossible to be allergic to pear, or for it to trigger a cross reaction with another food.

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that is really interesting about the pear, bob. He slept happily from 6 to 9am again last night. maybe his screeching session was a sore tummy caused by the change in formula? seems happier now. and I will definately put off weaning for as long as humanly possible without him getting visibly upset and hungry. I don't mind feeding him every 2.5 hours if he is happy in between, but not if he is cross and ratty and unhappy in between feeds...

oh, and can't see the derm until 3rd march. and that is private! presumably I wouldn't get an NHS appointment until 2008...

Princess, no responses to my posts here, but if you need anything by Aveeno it is readily available here in the States if you would like me to post anthing over to you. Aveeno is the company that make the fantasic Oatmeal Bath that I used for my DD all the time, and they make wonderful cremes also as were recommended to you.

you are a sweetiepie sunchowder, thank you very much for the offer. Aveeno seems to be fairly readily available here (having said that my local boots were out of stock - but they seemed to be surprised by that so hopefully they DO normally stock it). So is there a whole range of stuff? The oatmeal bath sounds nice - I'm currently making my own (oatmeal in a muslin) but something with a bit of nice oil in it would be good. And which of the aveeno creams specifically work for rachel?
actually his skin is suddenly improving - today it is MUCH better than 2 days ago. I think it must be the oatmeal baths beginning to work. unless it is the probiotics in his new milk? hmmm

hey princessinapeartree, we get aveeno lotion on prescription for our dd as it was recommended by the Great Ormond st paediatrician as a 'manager' for her eczema, which at one time was horrendous ( wet wraps sorted her out, long story, another time maybe!). Aveeno products are excellent and it's worth nagging your GP to make them available on prescription as they are quite pricey. Good luck. I know how hard it is to have a child with eczema.

Princess, Aveeno lotion in the pump and in the tube are both wonderful and the oatmeal bath in packets is fantastic, it is ground up very fine, they call it Natural Colloidal, we used to use a half packet when she was quite young and have her soak at least 10 minutes. Now we have graduated to a full packet! It is great for mosquito bites, sunburn, etc (which we have alot of over here)a great alternative to cortisone creams. I imagine you grinding the oatmeal yourself is quite similar, but this is so much more convenient! I firmly believe in probiotics also, just did a post to Mears on another thread. All of these things will help your darling Miles I am sure. You are a very good Mommy! I am glad he is getting betterany time that I made a change with Rachel (formula, medicines, etc) we had sleep interruptions and a bit of indigestion, so that is to be expected.