Please help me continue BFing...

[Cosmo89]

I'm really sorry for the rambling nature of this thread - I am sooo tired, miserable and could do with any advice or support out there.

DS is 9wko. for the past 3-4 weeks I have found BFing very difficult and demoralising - it's actually pushing me towards PND I think. I was expecting an improvement in his feeding as he got slightly older - ie. slightly less time, slightly more spaced out - His feeding did not seem to get more regular or effective - He is constantly hungry, unsatisfied, never pulls off or acts happy with his lot. His feeds are taking about 1hr and 30 minutes now - more than when he was newborn. By the time he's sort of finished, he's starting to get hungry again. This has been affecting his sleep - he;s too hungry to sleep and, it seemed, too tired to eat effectively.. He rages when I try to put him to sleep, because all he wants is food (and no, it's not comfort sucking - have tried to give him a dummy though, with no success).

I started to get really down because of this. I'm constantly feeding him or pumping (the 11pm dreamfeed is EBM by DP and gives me a bit of a break) - that's all I do - I can't easily move around because he gets so hungry so often and rages, getting really distressed. Whereas I think he might have been goign through a growth spurt recently (he's particularly bad) this pattern of behaviour is too frequent to be a 'one off'. I called the NCT helpline and took various measures to try to improve situation, including different rotations of breasts, hand pumping while he's feeding etc. Nothing worked.

Anyway, in an effort to satiate him I've been topping up with formula. Tonight (because he slept so badly last night and I just don't have the energy to pump 5oz - it takes me ages) He will have his entire dreamfeed as formula. Otherwise, I've been giving him 2oz just before bed time (after I've been feeding for 3 hours), which sends him straight to sleep.

Anyway, my use of Formula is getting more frequent and I can see that this might lead me to coming of Bfing de facto - before I've actually made the decision whether to continue or not.

In a last attempt to get a handle on it, I took him to a BFing cafe, where he was examined properly for tongue tie (GP and HV both said he didn't have it - without looking at him properly, just going on the fact of him putting on weight ok) but, yes, he does have it. The consultant said that this is probably what has been at the root of his feeding issues, explaining why feeding is taking longer (now that he needs more). She said that, yes, he has put on weight- because he has been constantly on me and it's been at the cost of my sanity - and (I believe) actually my relationship with DS - which is all about the feeding, no time to play/bond because he's either feeding or wanting to feed and because his sleep is so awful, he's so crabby all the time. I get few periods where he's happy and full, engaged and playing etc - when he has had EBM during the day (a couple occasions) in a bottle, he's been like a different baby.

Unfortunately, because it's been so late to be diagnosed, she said that correcting it might not make any difference to his feeding - he might be set in his ways.

We're going to try anyway, but we're now away for 2 weeks so it's goign to be more than 3 before we can correct it and see if it works. In the meantime, I'm going to have to continue topping up and perhaps dreamfeeding him and just give into the next 2-3 weeks, as his appetite increases, being rather difficult for me in terms of feeding him if BFing is what I want to keep doing.

I wonder whether I am just moving towards FF, which I am thinking about anyway as I have to start work again soonish part time and there is no way I can express what he needs for my mum to look after him a couple of half days a week. So part of me thinks I should just move him now. Another part of me thinks that i should BF him for as long as possible, as much as possible, and try combination feeding until his Breast feeds become so infrequent (past 6 months) they become more manageable.

I don't know what Im asking for really in this thread. In part its a rant -SO breast is best NHS? If that's true then educate your bloody GPS and HVs so they can support women who want to BF - I asked both twice each to look at DS and whether he had tt (I thought something was up) and feel stupid that I was fobbed off with 'he's putting on weight ok so he can't have it'.

I'm worried that this path just takes me to FF exclusively, which I want to do only if I make the decision to do it. I guess I'm looking for advice on how to keep up the BFing successfully whilst topping up/combination feeding - is it necessarily a slippery slope?

I have to say, in response to some of the threads here recently, BFing in my case is making me utterly miserable: in part because of my frustrating experience, and in part because of the guilt I feel topping up, let alone contemplating FF exclusively (because of hte pressure to BF). But I wish it wasn't like this - about 10% of the time I can see how special it is, and how much DS enjoys it and the closeness of it and I don't want to give that up.

Private tt snipping is around £100 and can usually be done next day. It might sound a lot but it's cheaper than formula.

So sorry you're going through this.

Also, at the risk of tipping you over the edge, the 11pm feed is probably not the best one to replace in terms of supply.

Are you able to go to bed at, say 7pm and have your DH bring baby to you and then away for feeds until midnight, to protect your sleep? Does you DH have any settling techniques? Holding Whikst bouncing on birth ball Whikst watching TV is my DH's.

Can I just say though, that it does sound bloody awful for you and please be proud of yourself for getting this far. In terms of the 6 month thing, you are a third of the way there, soon to be half way.

DS had his tt snipped at 11 weeks. It made a huge difference?
Probably worth a try.

What a time you've had It's frustratin that HCP's aren't educated enough about bfing. I have experienced myself the lack of support from my gp first hand.

I guess it's hard for you to see what is best when you are struggling because of his tt etc. it's no wonder you're fed up but please don't feel guilty, you are in this situation because of the lack of support you have received. If anything you should feel angry this hasn't been notice and sorted before now, it's not your fault, you're just trying to cope the best you can!

If I were you I would try to decide what I wanted in an ideal world then seek out the support to achieve that. So, if your ds don't have tt and was feeding less regularly what would you prefer to do then? If it is bfing then you need to try get the tt separated ASAP and keep on touch with the bfing cafe and get as much support as possible. Formula top ups can be a slippery slope but if you religiously stick to one feed a day your supply will adjust to feed around that and you should be ok. The problem usually happens when you start giving more and more formula here and there, not only do your breast miss a feed and the signal to make more milk (supply an demand) but the formula tends to fill baby up for longer as its harder to digest so baby won't demand a feed for longer than usual, again this means your breasts will be missing stimulation to produce milk and your supply will drop as a result. So, ideally if you top up it should be EBM, if you do use formula be very careful. I'm not saying don't give formula, just be aware of the effect

You are doing so so well, of bfing is what you want to do you can turn this around and it can be the nice experience you want. You just need the right support around you

What a nightmare. And my experience has been that doctors know either nothing or misinformed dangerous nonsense (when I had no troubles feeding at all and baby was happily stuck at the 50th centile, and I didn't ask for any advice, my GP warned me that I need to follow every bf with a ff otherwise I wouldn't know whether the baby was getting enough, and didn't I know this? I could go on...)

But what had happened to you is much worse. It's ridiculous. Can you afford to do our privately now, our are you going away straight away? That could be a good plan.

Or buy a super duper electric pump and give that a go alongside ff and as much bf as is practical? And sort of accept that it might fade out but you're just giving it a good go, which is all any of us can do, and you have certainly done the best you possibly could in almost impossible circs.

Rant away. You really need to. What a disgrace the way you've been treated is. and then try and have a nice holiday.

Thanks everyone!
Yep Starlight - you're tipping me! Because he takes so long to feed properly that 11pm bottle of EBM has been a life saver in terms of getting him to sleep through til about 1ish and meaning he doesn't need os much at that time - otherwise we'd still bein the cylcle of him taking 1hr and 30 mins etc. So I can't give it up, but I don't like that I'm giving him formula tonight (but am so tired I can't contmplate my usual feeding/pumping routine and I think it's more important that I claw back some sleep).
We're away for 2 weeks so no chance of getting it corrected until we get back but on the plus side,w ill be with my parents so will have more support around me. Hopefully I can do the majority of the dyas without a lot of formula and see it thorugh till we get back. Glad to hear it made the differencein your case Emma.
Thanks Dairynipsfor teh spport. the thought of giving up BF makes me very teary so I do want to carry on.

I disagree with what was said about it not making a difference, the mums that I've referred from my group for TT who have had it snipped have all had improvement, even if it took a day or two to adjust. When are you going away? if you request to see someone it can usually be done in that week - personally I would delay your holiday if possible, as you sound like you really want to get this sorted.

Please don't loose hope. Ask to see someone for the TT asap.

Congratulations on your little one - I'm sorry you're going through a tough time. Well done for feeding him for the last nine weeks. I'm sure more knowledgeable folks will be better help, I just wanted to reply as I remember feeling similar.

I empathise totally with you (apart from the tongue tie issue) as my DS, when he was born, would NOT be parted from the breast and pretty much fed every hour to two hours around the clock (actually, he only moved to four-hourly feeds after fully establishing on solids, which took a while for us as BLW). After doing some reading, I realised that it's totally normal. Hugely frustrating and tiring too, but normal. According to most people, it begins to get easier at around 12 weeks, so if you did want to hang in there, there is light at the end of the tunnel :)

I totally get it too with the 'not bonding/playing' with your DS because he's forever feeding. I couldn't hold my DS in the early days without him 'woodpeckering' on my chest. I used to feel really upset that he only wanted me to feed and I couldn't just give him cuddles. I learned this is exactly how young babies bond in those early weeks. Feeding is his play/bonding time/cuddle time/relaxing-Horlicks-at-the-end-of-a-tough-day-time all rolled into one. As he gets older, other stuff will begin to become more interesting but for now, it's all about mummy and what's in mummy's shirt!

With the mix-feeding, I don't have too much experience regarding this, but I think it should be possible - although I hear it can interfere with milk supply if too many bottles are given in the early days when things are getting established.

You've done so well to get through nine weeks and have given your DS the best start he could have. See if the tongue tie correction fixes anything. But please, I know it is tough, but try not to feel guilty/pressured about your choices. If you do want to carry on BF, it does get easier. I never thought it would, but 13 months later I don't even think about it anymore - just wave him in the general direction and he gets on with it

Sorry it does sound like you have had crap support. The fact that he doesn't come off himself, spit the nipple out satisfied, atleast some of the time, is a sign that something has not been right.

So the fact that he has put on weight shows a lot of determination on your and his part. Whatever happens now he has had a great start. If you continue with mix feeding the bm that he does get will help protect him against some of the risk of ff (stomach bugs etc).

I think you need to decide what you want. If the bfeeding settled down would you like to continue? If so focus on trying to get better bf support, pick the people who have been most help (bf cafe? - sadly its unlikely to be GPs or HVs for many people) and stick to them. If not and you do go for ff fully, please tell yourself you did your best and focus on the positive. There is so much to feel guilty about as a mother because none of us can do it perfectly.

When are you going back to work? That is a separate issue really because lots of people manage to switch back and forth more easily when they have been feeding for longer. I would focus on what you want and sorting out your situation now.

X-posts with lots of fab advice :)

Please excuse all my spelling mistakes, on my phone and it keeps autocorrecting me!

Just to add- it's easy to think of breastfeeding as purely nutrition but your baby is getting so much more from the time spent in your arm. This is bonding. Kellymom and analytical Jaramillo have loads of great info online about this stuff.

If you stopped bf you may find your baby still wants near-constant holding for comfort . It's normal. I had a constant feeder who was 75/91 centile so gaining well but fed all the time and in the early days it seemed we went from one growth spurt immediately into another. He was checked for tongue tie but it was decided he had a disorganised suck. What helped was when he had better head control. By 3 months things were so easy, I couldn't believe it!

Anyway, you want to continue bf. Separate his ability to feed from your ability to produce. Investigate the tt Sino and different positions and te uniques for latching (the nipple flick helped me loads, Google it.) Keep your supply up by feeding and having skin to skin contact (as much as possible) particularly overnight as your prolactin levels are higher. Have a leisurely bath with your baby (dim lights, him feeding or lying on your chest is lovely.) Talk to as many bf-experts as you can. Good luck.

Bloomin phone! Analytical armadillo.

Again with less typos...

Just to add- it's easy to think of breastfeeding as purely nutrition but your baby is getting so much more from the time spent in your arms. This is bonding. Kellymom and analytical armadillo have loads of great info online about this stuff.

If you stopped bf you may find your baby still wants near-constant holding for comfort . It's normal. I had a constant feeder who was 75/91 centile so gaining well but fed all the time and in the early days it seemed we went from one growth spurt immediately into another. He was checked for tongue tie but it was decided he had a disorganised suck. What helped was when he had better head control. By 3 months things were so easy, I couldn't believe it!

Anyway, you want to continue bf. Separate his ability to feed from your ability to produce. Investigate the tt snip and different positis and techniques for latching (the nipple flick helped me loads, Google it.) Keep your supply up by feeding and having skin to skin contact (as much as possible) particularly overnight as your prolactin levels are higher. Have a leisurely bath with your baby (dim lights, him feeding or lying on your chest is lovely.) Talk to as many bf-experts as you can. Good luck.

Just a random thought- could you get it privately clipped while at your mums? The additional support from her would be good and you need to feed frequently the first day after the clip, so maybe you'd be able to relax more there?.

I'm sorry you've had such a hard time. Be kind to yourself

You poor thing. You've done so well persevering for so long. My DD also has tongue tie. It CAN make a difference having it snipped, no matter when you have it done, it just might take a while for her to learn how to use her tongue properly afterwards.

I struggled on for 11 weeks in absolute misery. Like you, I think it was pushing me towards PND. We had her TT snipped twice, but unfortunately for us it was done incompetently, so there is still some left, and feeding never improved. I couldn't face the trauma of having it done for a third time, and finally gave up BF at 11 weeks. I struggled with the decision for ages, as I really wanted to BF, but I know that it was the right decision, as we were both so much more happy and relaxed straight away.

There is a great support group for tongue tied babies on Facebook.

I second the tt babies support group on FB

oh, your story is so sad.
Of course it is best to pump around the time you give the expressed bottle but often it is so much quicker in the morning. Could you do most of it then instead (if there is anytime in between feeding!)? It means your evening milk will decrease but that seems less of a priority at the mo as you are ending up giving formula anyway. You will still then eventually produce the same amount of milk every 24 hours, just more in the morning. You would need to switch this gradually though so as not to take the morning milk from ds. you could do half an ounce before the feed, then increase the amount after feeding.
can you sleep at night whilst feeding? do all feeding positions take as long?
on the couple of half days you work he might not be taking that much but just might be taking a long time over it?

I am so sorry you feel really down about feeding at the moment, please don't give up, please get help from a Lactation Consultant as soon as possible.

I know it sounds like it will be expensive, but it was the best thing for me and my DS when we were struggling with feeding just like you are now.

I had real trouble feeding my DS, but after he had a quick tongue tie snip it was so, so much easier.

The NHS Docs and Health Visitors didn't think he had a toungue tie, but I knew something was wrong. I struggled on, when to Breastfeeding Cafes etc..

Then a friend recommended a wonderful Nurse/Lactation Consultant in Surrey called Ruth: www.bestfeeding.org.uk/ Ruth is based in Guildford, but I'm sure if you don't live nearby she can recommend someone to help you and answer all your feeding questions.

I really can't recommend her enough - she totally helped me a time when I was feeling like you are now. I was about give up and was feeling low, Ruth came round to my house and talked through all the options.

I was even able to go back to work and keep breastfeeding my DS - it was like a miracle!

I hope things work out for you! Bigs hugs!

My ds had a posterior tongue tie which we had divided privately. His feeding improved straight away, I couldn't believe it.