How do you know if its hunger or something else? I'm now very confused...

[SwivelHips]

DS is just over 5 wks old and this past week I've topped up with formula twice per day but I'm now trying to reduce it.
Long story short is BT team have been out, could be I have low supply caused by poor latching. I've got a breast pump and I'm trying to use this 5 mins after feeding to stimulate supply - all good - this is day 5 of pumping.

Can I ask if I pump 3 times per day is that sufficient? (i usually manage between 7 - 10 mins in tandem). DS is usually attached to me in some way so I'd struggle to do more. I dont feel like my supply has increased much.

Yesterday we gave him 3 ounce top up lunchtime and I thought I wouldn't need to give any formula top up. Fast forward to the evening, I feed him, he falls asleep on the breast and I finally get him into moses basket (this is very unusual but that's another thread!!). 2 hours later he wakes, I feed him, etc etc only this time he wakes up almost immediately very agitated. DH chest didn't work and I decided to feed him again. This time he's screaming and coming off, its now 2:30 in the morning I give in and him 4 oz formula. Each time I remove bottle to wind he screams again, I read his signs as hunger. At end of bottle he falls asleep and sleeps for nearly 3 hours.

I'm now getting very confused reading the signals with him. I thought he was very contented falling asleep on breast but obviously not.

Can I also ask when he does the 'pulling off' me routine (this typically happens maybe 15 mins into feed), how long do i persevere for? I usually give it 5 or 6 mins then change sides but the same thing happens.So I keep changing sides and he gets really frustrated and I get really upset.
If I continued with this does another let down happen and he would have to work less? Unfortunately I dont feel the let downs so I dont know what's happening in there.
DS is generally happy feeding when my boobs are hard, when they're soft he starts the pulling off. This happened before I introduced top ups btw.
I'm in such a mess and really dread the evenings now.
any advice greatly appreciated :(

Swivel it all sounds hard work for you, and upsetting :(

Let downs are not always felt - there is no way of knowing what's going on in the breasts :) though sometimes you can infer things from what the baby is doing.

When he pulls off first side, it is fine to let him pull off, cuddle/pat whatever, and then switch sides. Not sure why you would be trying to get him on that same side for several mins before switching? Or am I misunderstanding?

Waking up 'agitated' sometimes results in the baby finding it hard to calm down and co-ordinate sucking and swallowing and he ends up distressed and frustrated. This is one of the reasons why keeping the baby close and snuggled up to you (in bed this would be co-sleeping) allows you to respond to early feeding cues before he gets into a paddy. I expect you have already found that generally speaking, feeds which begin calmly before he gets desperate are better feeds?

Expressing when you can is fine - not sure why you are expressing, perhaps you have said on another thread.

It can sometimes help to have a couple of calm, close days - if you can't do full on 'babymoon', you can hold him for as long as he likes and without pressure t 'get him down' and get him settled in the basket....what do you think?

Do you have any bf support groups you could go to this week? Should be some info in all the bumf hv gave you.

Or call your hv and ask for some advice.

But feeding every two hours is completely normal

Thanks for quick response :)
When he pulls off, he immediately trys to get back on from where he's came. Its not like pulling off when he's had enough (unusual in itself) so I'm assuming he's not finished with that side? He gets quite frantic and kicks his little legs when this happens. So do you think when he pulls off and trys to go back on I should change sides right away?

I'm expressing because the BF team said it would help with my supply. I might have said that I need that respite of someone else feeding which is why they suggested that, I can't remember now, my head is pretty fuzzy these days.

DH is away this week and I'll co-sleep with him, it wouldn't work with him here. I have spent a good few hours with him in bed (DS not DH!!) skin to skin etc and I felt it was helping. Last night though was like going backwards again.
I'll confess I do feel pressured to get him down in the basket from about 10pm - in the daytime I don't bother too much now.

there's a bf cafe tomorrow that i'm planning on going to, if we can get out the house of course :)
Feeding every 2 hours would be bliss :)

If he pulls off during a feed, why not try swapping immediately? If he is fussing and swapping sides isn't calming him down, then you could try adding in breast compressions which mimic an overfull breast and help speed up the milk flow.

It could be he is getting used to the fast flow of a overfull breast and a bottle and is preferring that to the slower, less forceful flow of an ordinary breast. Hard feeling breasts are over full with too much milk and milk production is slower and the fat content of the milk is lower too, soft(er) breasts have milk but they aren't overfull so milk production is faster and fat content of milk is higher.

Did he wake up when you put him down in his basket, or as soon as your nipple wasn't in his mouth? If he was screaming when he was put down/realised he had been put down, he could have been protesting at being apart from you not from hunger, he may have also woken up/screamed when the nipple wasn't in his mouth as he wanted to be close to you. Or it could be he wanted to carry on suckling while he slept for a bit. He may have fallen asleep after the bottle because he was very full (4oz is a lot of milk for a bf baby - it's approx 4 hours worth of milk - on top of a bf too) and he was just sleeping it off, kind of like a post-Christmas lunch snooze for an adult.

If you are pumping but then giving a bottle of ebm/formula, you are missing out on getting that extra breastfeed in. The idea behind pumping post feed is to encourage your breasts to make more milk without having to get baby to do it. However if you then give bottles that is sort of undoing your hard work, as your breasts aren't getting the message they need to make yet more milk as baby isn't bfing then so they are then being told less milk is needed (baby feeding from bottle then not breast so the gap between bfs is artificially increased). Any milk you express can be frozen for a later date, so it doesn't need to be wasted.

Switch feeding (swapping sides as soon as baby comes off) and babymooning (skin to skin time for as long as possible, pref. a few days so baby is bfing at the earliest opportunity and is giving maximum stimulation to your supply) are the easiest ways to increase supply without pumping which can be a faff for a lot of mums.

Is there any reason why you were advised to increase supply / supplement etc? Was there slow weight gain?

He usually wakes up after 5 or 10 mins in the moses basket when he realises he's been put down - this is regardless of whether he was feeding or sleeping on our chests (his fav position)
I haven't pumped today just been trying to feed.
He fed for 30 mins there (one side) and fell asleep, he's now asleep in moses basket. This rarely happens, could this be my supply is increasing or just that he's so tired he gave up? I'm now really confused, should I have offered him the other side if he was asleep? He used to feed for 40-50 mins on each side before sleeping, so now i'm unsure whats happening.
I should continue to switch feed to increase supply is the best course of action?

Yes showtunes there was slow weight gain plus one of the midwifes suggested he was basically hungry.

Sorry if this is disjointed, I dont have long until he wakes and I can't reply via my phone.

:) Thanks for listening

Hopefully tiktok will appear and give some great advice.

Has anyone spoken to you about the growth spurts? They happen (roughly) ever 6 weeks, so 6 weeks, 12 weeks, 18 weeks, 24 weeks, and your baby will seem constantly hungry through these phases. It's normal but can give your confidence a wobble if you're not expecting them.

Some mums have reported that fenugreek supplements and eating lots of oaty stuff such as porridge, can help increase supply.

oops missed that tiktok had already posted!