Anyone else's toddler do this?

[BertieBotts]

DS is 3.9 (so okay stretching the toddler definition a little there...)

He's always been fed to sleep and since he dropped his last nap has been going to bed consistently at 7, with no problems.

Recently though he has been messing around, won't latch properly, does this horrible little thing which feels like he's just licking the end of my boob and when I pull away from him there's no suction there at all. He finds this hilarious and it makes me really really angry, for no reason. (Which he also finds funny and which makes me want to slap him - I wouldn't, by the way.) For the past couple of nights I've ended up leaving him to come downstairs and "calm down" but not been able to face going back up (and he wasn't upset after the initial, half hearted protest) and he's fallen asleep just fine without milk, but not until about 8.30/9ish. Tonight I put off putting him to bed until 8 because I just couldn't face it and now I've stormed downstairs yet again telling him his messing around is making me feel very, very angry and he'll have to go to sleep on his own which left him sobbing :( although he did stop within a couple of minutes, and has now come down calmly saying he needs a wee.

I don't want him to feel like sleeping alone is a punishment or a negative thing, but I can't seem to control this anger I feel when he's doing it. Fairly major possibly related point - my DP has just moved out to Germany with work, although he never put DS to bed, I suppose this could be affecting things?

I don't know if it means he's self weaning or losing his latch? He sometimes asks for milk in the mornings and usually latches fine then although sometimes his teeth get in the way and hurt in a way it never used to, and when I unlatch him then again there isn't much suction there. Again during the day, his latching is sporadic, sometimes it's fine, and sometimes it doesn't seem to work properly. I can't tell if he's doing it consciously or not. Has anyone else experienced this and do you have any advice?

He may be self weaning? Could you try giving him just cuddles at bedtime instead of a bf for a few nights and see how it goes?

I think the key thing is to let go of your anger. Next time he does it just say no more bf and cuddle instead, so it doesn't become a game of getting you angry.

FWIW, whenever I have felt very angry at mine during a feed it has always meant that it was time to stop that feed or get into a pretty negative spiral.

In a slightly different boat as DS is only 17 months but the feelings you're describing sound like nursing aversion (LLL have some great info) - I've felt similarly during this pregnancy, particularly when DS is tired and doesn't open his mouth properly and just sucks my nipple in past his teeth... It annoys the Hell out of me and I have on occasion felt very cross with him.

I agree with the poster who suggests taking him off and offering a cuddle instead. I don't know if he's self weaning (although it's possible as I believe can happen anywhere from 2.5-7 years) but it does sound like he's old enough to understand he's messing about and it's not acceptable. If he's still latching well at other times maybe he doesn't need this feed or is enjoying the fact it gets a reaction and that gets him more time with you?

I understand it makes you frustrated (believe me I have been there) and I do think it's a good idea to take 5 minutes to calm down if you need it, but IMO making him go to sleep on his own because of it is cruel and 'too much' of a punishment. Personally I'd take him off and say something like "no more milk now, lets cuddle instead" - how do you feel about weaning if that's what's happening?

The thing is that he's always found it really hard to switch off at bedtimes and relax. I do too, so I'm sympathetic to him, but I don't know how to teach him the skill of shutting up your brain (especially as I still struggle at times!) - when he was younger I used to have to strap him down, literally, in a pushchair, to get him to relax enough to sleep. More recently it's been a wind down routine of reading books and talking and then we'll lie down for milk at which point I have to be very strict and insist he does not move (including fiddling) because I know any small movement means he's still in that alert, awake kind of mode, and often I would kind of sssssssh and whisper "Relax, sssssssh, relax" - I can feel the difference just having my hand on his body, as he holds himself sort of stiffly vs the actual, nearing-sleep-state relaxation.

However, in the past few days he hasn't seemed to get to this relaxed state at all and no amount of sssshing, instructions to keep still, threats that I will go downstairs if he's not ready to lie quietly to sleep yet, is helping. I am absolutely not going to go back to how it was before I discovered this when it took literally hours lying with him hoping he'd sleep, the horrible frustration of almost getting there but not, trying to pin him down with my own arms while he cried to be let go, walking him around the streets at 2am some nights in desperation. (This was when he was about 1.) I will go insane and I will shout and scream and frighten him and I don't want to do that. So perhaps trying to keep calm if/when I walk out is best, but I'm just worried at this late bedtime he keeps having as we have to get up for nursery in the mornings and some days he goes to the childminder as well and is there quite late. Perhaps it will sort itself out?

I've just realised the last really bad period was when I left XP, so it could be related to DP leaving even though the connection to bedtime is not there. I think I will definitely try talking to him about it at an unrelated time when he's calm and see if we can come up with some kind of plan or agreement. At least I know he can fall asleep by himself, although if I make it plain I'm doing that that's when he gets upset, however it doesn't last long and doesn't sound that genuine, if that makes any sense at all. Even though it sounds horribly callous to me it's almost like he doesn't like the idea but the reality of it is perfectly fine for him.

Xposted cupoftea.

It's really hard to explain what I mean, but the going downstairs thing has been something which has worked as an absolute threat/consequence of messing around up until now, and sometimes when I've gone back up he's been fine and snuggled down for a feed and fallen asleep as normal, but other times it just ends up dragging it out because he's still hyper/overtired/whatever is causing this and carries on messing around and I end up having to come down again and he gets upset again and then hyper when I come back up and it turns into a massive long performance which doesn't help him get to sleep, or me relax about bedtimes in general.

A couple of times doing this I've asked him to go and wait in bed for me and then not gone back up until much later. This works as he's calm, reassured as he knows I'm coming, and he really is tired so he ends up falling asleep fairly quickly. And in the morning he either doesn't mention it or says proudly "I went to sleep all by myself!" and I'll say in a shocked voice "I know! I came up to put you to bed and you were already asleep!"

It's not the actual falling asleep alone which is problematic for me, it's the fact I'm getting angry and then framing it as a negative thing, as in "Well you've done this so now you have to sleep alone!" - because I don't want him to see it as a bad thing! I live for the day he says to me "I'm okay now mummy, you go downstairs, I'll see you in the morning."

DS1 is the same, has always struggled to switch off (still does, aged 5 1/2!).

Keep trying different things, you never know what will work. What eventually worked for ds1 was my playing tetris on the computer . I used to sit on the bed on the internet with my computer while he fidgeted, then one day when the internet was down I played tetris and it was like magic. Now he climbs into bed and asks if I will play tetris for him, and is asleep before the game is over. If I don't do it for him, it can take him an hour to fall asleep.

Bertie, how was last night? Hope things are improving.

My 3.9 year old DS does this too - the wriggling and 'messing about' at the breast, I mean. I am about 23 weeks pregnant and my nipples are really, really sore, so it does wind me up quite badly. I tell him he gets just one chance to latch properly, but that if he keeps coming on and off there will be no milk. He has more or less accepted this, but I do have some serious 'ouch' moments. It has made me very cross over the last few weeks, to the extent that I was dreading him nursing.

I think that at nearly four years old, DS is old enough to understand that he has to be respectful of my sore nipples. He is actually nursing more than he used to (perhaps in an attempt to rejuvenate my dwindling milk supply, and for comfort). We co-sleep, so it is perhaps easier for me to just roll away from him and tell him he can have more milk when he is ready to be sensible.

It makes sense to me that your DS could be 'testing' you and using this way of nursing to deal your DP being absent - I am fairly sure that my DS is using his wriggly way of nursing as a means of making sure I am there for him even though there is a new baby coming.

Don't know if this image will help you (it has helped me!) but I keep remembering the way my cat was her 5 kittens got old enough to wean... when they were tiny and dependent on her milk, she spent all her time nursing them and nothing could make her abandon them even for a moment, but when they got older and a bit wriggly she used to squirm around in discomfort, give them just a few minutes then get up and walk off leaving them squealing for more milk. She still played with them and washed them etc. so it wasn't that she had rejected them completely.

I think it's okay to feel cross and fed up when children wriggle and mess about at the breast - and to be honest about feeling that way. Perhaps this 'antsy' feeling might be nature's way of telling us it is okay to set new boundaries for nursing as our children get older.