Does good latch = no pain, ever?

[needsadviceplease]

DS is almost 5 wks. He's been feeding all day today (guess that'll be the heat) and it was pain-free until a few hours ago, but now my nipples are getting a bit sore. I'm sure I've read somewhere - poss Penelope Leach? - that with a good latch, even 'too much' feeding still shouldn't cause any discomfort. Is that your experience? We are just shaking off the last of thrush and I was hoping for comfortable feeding from here on - I think his latch seems fine so really want to know if the evidence suggests otherwise!

Not helped by flailing limbs at almost every feed today. :( This whole thing feels like one step forward, two steps back...

Good that it's generally pain free & that the thrush has gone - very well done for already having reached the 5 week mark.

I had some initial issues with tongue tie, mastitis & blocked ducts, so not the easiest ride to start with but, when that all got sorted out, I did still get sore nipples when DD fed for hours at a time. The soreness wasn't really pain exactly, but was really uncomfortable and my nipples would definitely feel used & abused! After the 6 week growth spurt and some of the evening cluster feeding, I had monents of wanting to send my nipples on a long holiday to recover :)

I think, and this is only my opinion, that even if the latch is perfect it does take some getting used to, especially if your LO feeds often - the fact is that nipples are sensitive and I think some need more 'toughening up' at the beginning. Mine definitely did. Also, mine were more sensitive just before my period would have started - hormones maybe?

Now, at the 13 week point, DD still flails around, spits the nipple out repeatedly, sucks it back in etc, but there is never (ever) any pain in terms of the nipples themselves. The blocked ducts are an ongoing battle, but that's another story...

I've also found breastfeeding to be incredibly rewarding, but incredibly challenging. Keep going though, you're doing brilliantly and it won't be long until it's mainly steps foward with fewer & fewer back.

Hmmm with one of mine the latch was never perfect and it was always sore and uncomfortable, with the next two no pain at all - so it does imply that perhaps the latch hasn't always been "perfect" - may have only taken one feed with a non-ideal latch to make you sore though.

I used to swaddle mine when they were little to avoid the flailing arms

i am pretty sure that DD has a good latch (she is now 8m old)

the other day (probably about 3 weeks ago) she basically went to bed on an empty stomach (had allergic reaction to her tea, so projectiled everywhere, then the piriton dr prescribed made her too tired to even have a decent milk feed before bed) and slept all night

in the morning she had the biggest feed in a long time (27 mins to be precise feeds are rarely longer than 10 mins now, and normally about 5mins) and towards the end my nipple was getting sore

I have had all sorts (thrush /mastitus etc etc) but i havent had sore nipples since she was about a week ir 2 old)

so i believe that even when baby has a good latch (DD does) if they feed for a very long time it can get sore

I had sore nipples for up to 12w with DS, and then it settled. I kept thinking it was our latch or thrush or we were doing something wrong, but preservered and the pain settled. Now I'm pg and I have the same pain. My conclusion is that it's sensitive nipples! My nipples have changed shape completely from little ones that are usually flat and occasionally stick out to huge stick out ones, clearly there was a lot of suction on them and it's not surprising that it hurt!

That all sounds very reassuring! Thank you all. I'm beginning to hope this is a growth spurt, rather than just a reaction to the hot weather - other than an hour's nap in the morning and another in the afternoon, he fed constantly from 4am to 10pm - so, so don't want that every warm day. :( Argh. Thanks again for lovely support - it really has helped.

I wouldn't call it sore, more just uncomfortable, but when my baby fed for pretty much 4 hours straight a couple of times when she was younger, it didn't feel nice.

If it is any consolation my nipples gradually desensitized, and are quite numb now especially on one side for some reason. Was very painful to start with and I had my latch checked lots of times, it was apparently fine.

Without trying to lower the tone, if any bit of your body was sucked with some force for many hours each day, I am quite sure it would get sore. So for days like this when it's hot and your baby needs more feeds, your nipples don't have the same recovery time between feeds.
I found using a dab of lansinoh and trying to air my boobs (I got a very fine muslin top which I could wear braless) really helped to heal and restore nipples in between the extra demand for feeds) but like safmellow says they do definitely desensitise after time too.

Can't believe how genuinely thrilled I am by prospect of desensitising nipples! Ha. In other good news, today has been much slower - think was a growth spurt and not normal service for sunny days! :o

Yes, 'sore' is probably a better word than 'pain'. Unfortunately I had to give up on the lansinoh once thrush kicked in, that prob hasn't helped with sore overused nips though. Am topless almost all day, either feeding or airing them!

Thanks again.

Doh, baby brain - just reread sc2987's post - def more than discomfort for me.

The airing is good for thrush too. I think the difficulty is that you naturally wap yourself back in bra as you finish feeding but for soreness and thrush, I found by going au natural it def helped - not the best look for walking down the high street but fine for the house!
Fingers crossed its a pesky growth spurt.. Or maybe your supply has changed today to suit what your baby wants- I used to express and was really surprised by the variety of the milk that came out - from skimmed milk to gold top, I'm sure depending on somehow my clever boobage knowing what the baby wanted.

Remember to smear some breastmilk on before you start airing, I found that really helped.You could maybe try different breastfeeding positions too.

Ha, impossible not to atm - I am leaktastic, another good reason to stay topless - hard enough making sure I have a clean bra each day as it is! How interesting about the visibly different milk!

I've had a go at the biological nurturing positions today - the variety of physical position is def good, he sometimes seems to use reflexes to find and latch and sometimes not - can't work out if I'm too late for that really. It's irrational but I feel really sad I didn't know about it sooner. :(

Have you been to a breastfeeding group? It is a really good way to get advice from a trained peer supporter/ counsellor and meet other mums. There is no obligation for your baby to have a feed at the moment you are there, btw..you might pick up a few tips on the different positions, latch etc... I found it a lifesaver and certainly got me through some low points.

Don't be sad, remember you are doing great to still be feeding, especially to carry on through thrush, which can't have been the most pleasant experience. X

Thank you... Ugh, have had a rubbish night. Clearly beginner's luck yesterday with the biological nurturing, haven't been able to manage it comfortably again. And still can't do it well in the side lying position. But I was so tired I tolerated bad latches all night rather than sit up. And now I'm tired and sore and DS' latch in cradle hold seems somehow worse than it was. Tried the local bf support group a couple times and got a couple of useful tips but felt really uncomfortable, like I didn't fit in with the other mums, and I don't know what I'm really asking for now. I suspect if baby and I can't manage lying down then we just can't manage it, not yet anyway. :(

Sorry. What a mess of self pity!

I'm saying this to make you feel better, but I fed for 11 months but never really mastered lying down - gutting as it was. Just seemed to make me sore, baby didn't get good latch and ironic of all, I couldn't relax or be asleep.
So for all that time, apart from the odd 'feed to sleep' I was a sitting breast feeder
At night I had a kitchen chair to sit in upstairs as being as upright as poss seemed to help the latch no end.
Likewise in the day, I noticed unless I had good back support, I slouched, the latch suffered and soreness came on.
Sorry you didn't get on with the group, but could you try some one on one support from NCT or LLL or other breastfeeding support?
Also are you sure the thrush has cleared up, it is a bugger, and can make the baby fussy and you sore?
And, also have you tried going back to basics? I had a few phases of soreness and analysed my feed from start to finish, latching on, position whilst feeding etc. that's something a counsellor if you feel comfortable enough with, could come and help you with?
It could be the smallest thing that is making you sore.
I did find lansinoh as a restorative pretty essential, I know you've said you're not keen after the thrush
Have you tried a nipple shield to try and get you past the worst? Some people agree with them, others don't, but again if I hadn't used them at time of extreme soreness I would have been in a right pickle... Even one feed with a bit of additional protection can be enought to break the cycle of the soreness.
Hope you have a better day today ..

Thank you, thank you, thank you. So much. I'm reluctant to use a shield just yet - I remember the pain was worse than this earlier on and I coped, so I know I don't need it just yet if that makes sense. I don't think we're totally thrush-free yet really (still treating) - the deep pain has gone and tbh that was so awful I prob never noticed that the thrush might be causing other pain in the nipple etc too. It also doesn't help that DS knees me in the opposite side as he feeds! Argh. Probably I should try to get someone to come and see us. I'll look it up once I can get on the computer.

I'm doing a lot of 'crying over spilt milk' here I think - I wish I hadn't started off with the 'grab baby behind the ears and shove him on' approach the mw suggested. The best bit of advice I got from the bf group was to just hold him and let him latch and it was so right for us - he does much better than I do! I can't help thinking if I'd let him lead from day 1 it would all be so different now, although maybe that's not true anyway.

Good to be aware lying down may never work for us - well, good and miserable anyway! We seem to do better if I slouch a bit I think, but I'll play around and test things. Because thrush came so early - about 10 days old - we've not yet had a period of normal, good feeding, I don't think. I never know what to blame if it doesn't feel right.