in total despair - can I still make BF work at day 8 with no milk?

[HardCheese]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my earlier thread. This is where I am now.

My situation is this. It's day eight - first baby, ELCS, and have only a few drops of colostrum, enough to cover the bottom of a bottle.

I have flat nipples, he couldn't latch and I couldn't get any colostrum out in hospital, despite a lot of midwives pinching painfully, so I started to formula feed him, as he was so hungry and nothing was coming out, whether by hand expressing or pumping, and his blood sugar dropped. I blame myself for not getting better advice immediately and not pumping more regularly when I first got home, but I was very overwhelmed and I thought my milk would inevitably come in and that then I would be able to 'wean' him off the bottle and onto the breast - but it hasn't.

I've now got nipple shields which help give him something to latch onto, and on NCT advice have started pumping 15 minutes a side every 2 hours - the NCT breastfeeding line person's theory is that my body has been getting mixed signals about whether milk is needed or not - but is this all too late at eight days after delivery with no sign of milk? Is there any point in continuing? Surely if I'm not extracting any milk, my body won't get the signal to produce more?

If I thought there was still hope, I would grit my teeth and keep going, despite how hard it is to try to juggle my lovely baby with all the pumping, and to try to get him interested in a nipple shield when all he wants is his bottle... But the whole thing is making me so miserable and feel so guilty about not giving him the best. When do you give up and acknowledge you have a ff baby?

yes there is hope. people have successfully relactated much later than 8 days. it might be quite a lot of work, but there is no real reason why you shouldn't be able to do it.

it really depends on how much you want to do it. it IS hard work, and you need to be quite devoted to making it work I think.

do you have a local LLL group?

some people simply cannot express, despite breastfeeding successfully, so i wouldn't necessarily assume that you have no milk at all. What it might mean though is that you need to work big time on getting him to suckle. will he still latch on and nurse? if so then do that before every single feed (in fact, as much as you can)... it will stimulate milk supply, keep him happy, hopefully he'll get a bit of milk

I wonder if a supplemental nursing system would help? Have a google, medela do them. Can you get him latched on without the shields at all?

Do you have a decent hospital grade pump?

Agree with tiy- it's v. hard work to relactate, but not at all impossible.

Grandmother's have succesfully relactated, so physically it is possible if there are no other issues as to why milk hasn't turned up. Keep going with the pumping, keep latching on when you can and remember that every single drop will make a difference. Good luck. xx

Can you get speciality teas from your local chemist over there? In Germany every chemist sells these teas, different tea for various ailments (calming, cough, chesty etc) and they do one for breastfeeding. You just drink a cup of tea (no milk!) and it had dramatic effects on my milk supply. It was great.

If it helps, I could often only express a teeny bit, but I know the baby got loads more when drinking direct.

Just found it on amazon, by Weleda. I remember some were absolutely vile but some were lovely, taste varies a lot. Sorry, can't remember if this one is nice or manky! www.amazon.co.uk/Weleda-Nursing-Tea-20-Bags/dp/B002YYKJ7Y

Hi hardcheese I was wondering how you were getting on. I'm sorry things are so difficult for you.

You say he just wants his bottle when you offer boob.... Have you tried offering your boob with shield after he's had a little bit from the bottle? Trying to get a hungry baby to do anything is a nightmare and you might have more luck if he's satisfied the initial hunger.

You need to keep calm and not despair. Even after 5 months I struggle to get a let down if I am agitated. Easy to say and hard to do I know.

mm yes i was going to mention the SNS too see here

Thanks, guys. I just ordered the Medela SNS, and I hope it will arrive tomorrow.

crikey, I have a brand new Medela Swing, which I hate more than any other piece of equipment I have ever owned, because I seem to spend half my time peering into it to see the same three drops of colostrum. I honestly don't think we can afford any more equipment - we've already spent an absolute small fortune on things like the breast pump, bottles, nipple shields, steriliser, microwave to use the steriliser in, and now the SNS too.

Pastabee, I do - and this afternoon it worked quite well, and he stayed latched for a few minutes without getting agitated - it doesn't always work, though.

world, I will think of those grandmothers and grit my teeth...

Well that sounds encouraging. He is showing an interest now?

Have you been able to find a BF counsellor that could come to your house? Where i live the local support workers are great (and free!). They were the only people who had time for me after i'd had my DD. Everyone was kind but in a rush for the next appointment. The BF counsellor was with me for two hours and she really listened and helped.

Are you trying to feed him in a comfy position (not easy when you've just had a baby, for me it was on my bed with a zillion pillows) and sitting with your top off with DS just in his nappy and having loads of skin to skin cuddles? It's so important in the early days and has the added bonus of being a lovely thing to do.

Yes, there's hope. Removal of actual milk is not the sole stimulator of production - adoptive mothers who have never been pg produce a milk supply from 'nowhere' by repeated and frequent expressing. You have hormones on your side too :)

If is any consolation, I had no milk (nor colustrum) for 6 days after an ELCS. It took a long while becuase your body doesn't receive all the prompts it needs, and in my case I had a GA which didn't help. Am not sure if you've HAD milk, or it just hasn't come in yet?
I expressed milk and tried to get me LO to latch on for 8 wks, toward the end I used a Medela SNS which I found v fiddly but with shields it did encourage my LO to latch on, though by that point we never got the hang of things - she just didn't see to get the need to suckle.
I'm sure this will annoy a lot of people, but IMO you need to give things a good go BUT know when to draw a line and stop. I found it very tough expressing (once you have milk I ws told every 3 hrs) and felt a failure despite all the effort.

pastabee yes, he is showing a little more interest, and i am more excited about it than if i had won the lottery. he has a ferociouslt

i have tried several times to get someone to do a bf home visit, which i really want especially the first time i use the supplemental feeding system, which arrived just now - lots of people on the medela site comments seem to suggest you need support to start off with as it was fiddly and i will be using it with nipple shields too - but everyone is out of town on holidays and can't come till next week. i genuinely don't feel up to going to a class or drop in centre yet, as i seem to have hit the weepy stage. doesn't help that our gorgeous boy seems inconsolable at night at the moment.

tiktok thanks. good to know.

bumperella i am honestly not sure myself about whether my milk came in and i 'missed' it because i wasn't pumping and the baby was on bottles - i did get engorged last fri and sat but it passed off - or whether it is very late. i did think that the tiny amount i produced when i last pumped was more whitish than yellowy-clear...?

I used the SNS alone, with lots of tape though! I found it easiest to put the end of the pipeline thingy inside the nipple shield and tape it all into place, esp if you can just get the edge of the shield with the tape so is not taped onto your nipple. If you then squeeze the SNS bottle so the shield has some milk in it to start off with then this might help; if you can manage to express some milk into the sheild first that's better still. That's what I found anyhow, so a v scientific sample size of one!
It does sound a bit like you had milk and it's dwindled away a bit, otherwise you prob wouldn't have felt engored.
Definitely take care of yourself! Sleep whenever you can, spend as much time cuddling up to your lovely baby as you can, and be positive about yourself- how great you are to be coping as well as you are.

I am no expert (tiktok knows much more) but forme.feeling weepy was a precursor to milk comming in so maybe.a hopeful sign

No experience to add but wishing you lots of luck :) whatever happens you should be so proud of yourself for trying so hard.

Just to second what Pastabee said about the BF counsellor. I had a lady from the Breastfeeding Network come to my home at least four times and spent over an hour each visit. She would have continued to come until my problems (all of my problems! ) were resolved. Cannot sing their praises highly enough and as Pasta said they were the only people I came across who had lots of time to spend with you.
Best of luck!

bumperella thanks - that's really helpful to hear from someone else who used the SNS with nipple shields. I haven't actually tried it yet, as I felt too tired and demoralised yesterday, but today may be the day. Thanks for the tips.

And thanks everyone for beng so kind, you are making me cry (not that it's difficult at the moment).

olives, I will try to Breastfeeding Network - as I said, it's just a bad time to try to arrange a home visit. Everyone seems to be out of town, and when they've suggested someone else, they seem to be out of town too!

startthefans, I have Medela shields, the half-contact kind. I was wondering about getting the rounder variety, as my nipples are feeling quite shredded. Good to know about the Boots kind, thanks.

hardcheese the crying is completely normal. Awful but normal. Knocked me for six to feel that vulnerable especially as I'm not an emotional person normally. I think I blamed everything on my feeding difficulties when actually it was just a hormonal reaction to giving birth.

startthefans has mentioned supplements. The BF counsellors where I live talk about fenugeek (sp?) and Motilium as substances that can increase milk production. I'm sure someone expert such as tictok can say whether this might help as there are some contraindications but I know a few mums at my group swear by them.

I remember being recommended fenugreek and porridge oats. There are other things,n but those are the two I remember as they were "normal food" things.
To be frank, I hated using the SNS/sheilds/tape at first but after getting the hang of it it was fine. I remember I felt really miserable and demoralised too - however, you need to remind yourself that your going MORE than "the extra mile" for your baby. Whatever happens, you know you've done absolutely your very best and that it's a pretty good best at that.

bumperella God, it's fiddly! Have just seen a BF counsellor who helped get the SNS/shields thing get set up for the first time, and am going to try to do all feeds from it for a bit and see whether it helps. Can I ask how long you gave it, whether you were feeding expressed breastmilk or formula through the SNS, and whether you eventually got rid of it and were able to just BF, with or without nipple shields? Basically, did it work for you?

BF counsellor confirms my problems are dual - low supply and flat nipples.

Thanks for the kind words - I realise that part of me wanted the BF counsellor to tell me it was OK to give up, or that I'd missed the boat on BF this time, and would have to bottle feed, but I can't quite stop trying yet...