I am a mess.

[Kenobi]

DD2 is 2.5 weeks old. I am a mess.

I have just recovered from a terrible bout of thrush in both nipples combined with a very cracked nipple in my left side - so sore it felt like I was having razor blades sucked out. I couldn't speak during the latch and would clench on DD2 so she started hating feeding on that side. A lactation consultant came round and sorted my latch out so I could at least keep feeding.

Was giving DD nystatin, myself daktarin then it went systemic and I was given fluocazine (sp?) to clear it. It went and the welt started to heal.

Now something else is happening - it feels like the inside of my left breast is bruised and it hurts even after feeding. I think the thrush has gone systemic again. The welt has reopened. I can't face going through this all again, and giving DD all those horrible chemicals.

Also, I suffered from terrible SPD throughout labour and although it's a lot better, it's still there. I know for a fact that if I stop BFing the relaxin hormone will leave my system and I'll recover much faster. This is a big deal as I have DD1 who is 2.5 and massively feeling the effects of a mummy who can't pick her up and only seems to breast feed (it takes 25 mins per side as I have a very slow let down).

... But if I stop I'll feel like such a failure, and like I'm depriving DD2 of such a lovely comforting thing. Also DD2 is very fussy, probably reflux has she will only sleep sitting up (lactation consultant says she's showing the signs), so to deprive her of the breast?

I'm not in a very good way to be honest, very teary (can barely seen screen as I type) and I'm frightened it's more than the baby blues.

I thought I'd be better at this second time round.

Please do not feel like a failiure ! You have kept going thru all the pain and at great expense to your own recovery. Yes we all know it's best for a million reasons BUT what matters more than any of that is that you are both happy. Whatever happens that baby is going to get fed so just do what you feel is best for u. If your happy ur dd will be happy. :)

Oh and please if u think your are having signs of pnd speak to your doctor they can help you. It happens to so many women and it's nothing to be embarrased about and there is no need to suffer in silence. Don't let it ruin such a precious time. I don't know what ur hv is like could u talk to her? {{ hugs}} :)

I'm still sort of ok still except for the teariness, my DH is being amazing and I'm still finding enjoyment in stuff. I just can't work out if it's just baby blues and tiredness or actually something worse. I know it's still early days but I'm so so tired of being in pain and feeling like a failure.

The SPD thing is wrong.
The hormones produced During breastfeeding are helping heal the SPD.
I am still seeing my physio 8 months after the birth and he told me that the single biggest thing I am doing to help my recover is continuing feeding.

U have carried and brought a beautiful baby into the world. That is not being a failure. Please stop beating Urself up over things you can't help. It's lovely you have such a supportive dh. Use him to allow yourself to rest and recover. You need to look after yourself too :)

This is so normal - well it was for me anyways. I breast fed my first more because I felt I had to than wanted to. The first few weeks we're just awful, cracked nipples, blocked ducks that I kept having drained in hospital, crying with pain when feeding, baby spat up blood from my nipple... It does get better. I'm so pleased I fort thru it. I ended up feeding her myself for 6 months (my goal is always 4 months) Having said this...you've done the best bit, if breast feeding is what making you feel down then stop. Could you just feed yourself at night time and morning time and give yourself a break in the day? Happy mummy happy baby. Do whats best for you too, your not a failure if you stop. I was never breast feed and I never have colds/allergy's, I'm not over weight ect. My partner and his siblings we're all fed for 2 years and there's always something wrong with one of them. As for your 2 year old - I was in the same boat. At the end of my pregnancy and first few weeks of having my latest I felt like an awful mum, I was so tired and in and out of hospital with blood transfusions that I wasn't giving her enough time. Everything works itself out thou. She doesn't remember them few weeks and giving her a little brother was the best gift I could of ever given her. Cheer up hun. Your a new mummy again, it's really really hard work but it's all worth it. Your doing an amazing job, just remember to make a bit of time for you. when the children are asleep, get a big bubble bath and go to sleep.

...Obvously, try not to fall asleep in the bath...x

miss aargh, that completely conflicts with what I was told by an SPD specialist.

rae you just made me giggle - I will try not to pass out in bath!

Is it possible to feed at night but not during the day?

It's true that BF doen's effect SPD it's the hormones from PG that effects the SPD so please don't give up on that account as you've been given duff advice. although I've not hurd BF can help it certainly woun't make it any worse.

Regards the breast pain I'd speck to the lactation consultant again if you can could be something else going on other then the thrush.

So sorry you're going through all of this - it sounds tough.

Can you see the lactation consultant again and see what they think? Have you tried jelonet on the welt- its a gauze dressing that will protect it. What about expressing to give things a chance to heal?

It's fine for posters to trot out the 'happy mummy, happy baby' line, but you don't sound like you actually want to stop feeding. Have a look at this from the wonderful Analytical Armadillo.

I'm no feeding expert as regaurds if it's making you feel worse/better ect but I do know feeling tired and desperate will make you feel awful. After 4 months off feeding my two exlsivly I started weening them onto fornular in the day and feed last thing at night, in the night if they woke and first thing in the morning. After a week or so my milk just came in at those times. I wouldn't even leak in the day but as soon as 6 o'clock came I started to fill up ready for the last feed. Your body is an amazing thing. Waking up in the night and having to do a formular feed is tiring compared to latching them onto you in bed but formular feeding in the day some find more conveniant eps when you've already got a child wanting your attention.

oh and just feeding at night would be tricky IMO. You are in the v early days of bfing and you supply is not yet calibrated. If you were to feed in the night, what would happen in the day?

You would probably experience engorgement and over full, uncomfortable breasts that would need to be expressed to give you some relief.

Well, that's might thoughts anyway, others may be able to suggest that it is possible.

my thoughts

Like I said, I'm no feeding expert but it worked for me later on down the line and it's worked for friends earlier on. A friend had to go back to work after 4 weeks and she only fed in the night. If you ween slowly. Try one bottle a day and cut our one of your feeds then another bottle another week. You shouldn't get awful engorgment this way. I went straight to the morning and night feeds and I didn't suffer. Hopefully you'll feel better and maybe is still getting some of the good stuff.

badger I don't want to give up but I can't take much more pain, TBH. If my toddler even so much as brushes against my left breast it hurts, thats how bad it is.

Rae that's interesting. I was worried it was too early to start monkeying around but perhaps if i can make it to 4 weeks then I can survive on just the nights.

If bfing is causing pain and you are having cracks open up in your nipples then it sounds like the latch needs 'tweaking' still, are you able to see the LC again (private LC or one through a local bfing support group?) or call one of the bfing helplines to get specialist support?

Jelonet (or other moist wound healing dressing) is a good idea as moist wond healing helps wounds/cracks heal twice as fast as air healing AND they heal without scabs which can get sucked off during feeding (the scab coming off early can cause a slightly bigger wound which if that scabs over and then gets sucked off again will cause yet a bigger wound).

Are you taking painkillers before feeding - both paracetamol and ibuprofen are compatible with bfing (assuming they are compatible with you!). A short term measure I know but sometimes we just need a little extra to get over the 'hump' before feeding can be more comfortable.

Has baby had a proper oral assessment to check for a tongue tie or other oral issue? Not a quick look and a 'that looks fine to me' but an assessment of baby's sucking ability, tongue movement, lips & palate.

Do your nipples look the same post-feed as they did before a feed? They may be a bit more 'sticky out' but shouldn't be squashed, lipstick or bullet shaped, white/purple/red or change colour.

Bfing (on the whole) delays ovulation and when the corpus luteum (the cyst that forms to mature the egg) releases relaxin this can effect the symphasis pubis, also the deciduous (womb lining) releases relaxin to help the cervix open to let the womb lining come away.

I had SPD pain on ovulation and just as my period was due with DD1 (was bottle fed for 1st 8 weeks [mix ebm & formula] before bfing directly and my period came back at 9w), this didn't happen with DD2 & DD3 when my periods returned at 11m pp.

truth thank you for a comprehensive answer.

I did have some jelonet but it was impossible to use in conjunction with the daktarin thrush cream so I stopped. I am going to try gentian violet next and kill the thrush once and for all, then concentrate on the welt, will try again with the jelonet.

The BF specialist I saw is very well known (won;t name her as she seems to be very divisive and I really don;t want to go there), and def showed me a good latch but I think the welt is so large (DD was pulling my nipple away to the right and it's the whole left side of the nipple) it's just not healing. Also I get lazy and don't always position her quite right in the middle of the night - I'm fighting against bad habits I built up BFing DD1. Successfully and painlessly feeding DD1 I might add.

She also had a good look in DD's mouth and says that there might be a tiny bit of tongue tie but not enough that anyone would snip it. DD is a bit undershot which is probably why she pulls so hard to the R when on the L breast. Why the R breast has escaped all this pain I don't know.

They DO change colour actually - they go whitish then bruised-looking. I've read about Reynauds but I have excellent circulation so it seems unlikely?

I stopped taking painkillers as I had to take so many post c-section but I'm in as much pain now frankly.

That makes TOTAL sense on the BFing and hormones.

rae badger re the happy mummy thing... well, not being in pain would probably be a mood boost!

Genetian violet isn't rec. in the UK due to the links to ulcers and oral cancers - it is used in US/Canada though for historical/traditional reasons I believe.

If you are having nipple vasospasm (the colour change is due to the compression of the nipple during the feed which cuts of the blood circulation) this can feel like razor blades/pins and can 'mimic' thrush. This is a far more likely source of the pain than thrush infection - sorry - even if you have thrush as well you need to get the vasospasm sorted as even after the thrush is gone you will still have pain from the vasospasm (thrush can cause vasospasm but if you/baby haven't cracked latching it will only be exacerbating it). Good info on vasospasm here.

Even the smallest looking tongue tie (function not form is the 'rule' for frenulums) can in the wrong circumstances cause huge feeding difficulties and pain for the mother so I would suggest getting an IBCLC or BFC to check and possibly release the tie before going down the route of more thrush treatment (fluconazole has a long half life in babies under 6 weeks and can build up quickly so shouldn't be used unless all else has been ruled out/resolved). There is a list of IBCLCs who check/release TT here so you can see if there is one in your locality.

HTH

Also, as thrush isn't one sided - it's so contagious that if you had it in the left breast it would be passed to the right very quickly by the baby especially if you feed from 2 or more sides each feed (which is normal btw!)

Ok, that's really interesting. I def had thrush - confirmed by both MW and the BF specialist, and it went systemic in both breasts so I've had Fluconazole. It cleared it within 48 hours and I really, really don't want to put any more chemicals in her poor little system, but felt that GV might be worth a shot.

I am very, very interested by that vasospasm link you've sent me. Am massaging chest as suggested and it's already helping. Will also call first thing tomorrow to check tongue tie - there's someone in the area.

truth, I'm almost pathetically grateful for your clear, helpful knowledge - thank you.

Actually thank you to everyone who has replied.

Oh god I'm going to cry again...

Interesting that you had thrush confirmed by MW & LC - was that after milk testing/swabs? Or was there a reason you/baby would be susceptible to thrush at such an early stage (you don't have to tell me of course!) as very early thrush infection can be indicative of things like being immuno-compromised, being actively thrush infected at baby's birth, anti-biotics at birth/post-partum, etc. Good that the fluc. worked so quickly though as some women get course after course.....

Glad that something is working (or semi-working) in reducing pain levels, you may find keeping a breast pad in between your thighs whilst feeding to put on as soon as baby pops off (keeps the pad warm!) or using a heat pad (warm though not hot!) to put on after a feed helps. Warmth is your friend if you have vasospasm and cold especially on damp skin is your enemy!

So glad that Truthsweet has managed to go through things and make some really good suggestions.

Hope you get everything sorted and the tongue tie snipped if needs be.

on the one sided nipple soreness. my ds had tt that was snipped quite late, even after snipping his latch was much worse on on side than on the other. We had a number off sessions with a cranial osteopath that really helped as due to forceps, cord, tt he had a number of pressures and restrictions.
I also think that your lc should be able to give you some more follow up if its still hurting. Dont be afraid to find someone else. And finally from what I can read its not so much the size of the tie its how it affects tongue movement and function.

It was diagnosed visually not with swabs - DD had white spots and white residue on her tongue, I had shiny swollen nipples and deep stabbing pains in both breasts. I don;t know how she got it as I had a c section not a vaginal birth. She took in a lot of mucous at birth and I lost a fair amount of blood and am anaemic which I gather can cause thrush.

Breast much less sore last night - warm breast pads and jelonet def helped. Am also concentrating on latching more carefully. Will also still call the TT lady.