contented little baby?

[samhb]

dd is 4 weeks old today and i'm trying to estblish a routine according to the gina ford book but;

bf times are taking a lot longer than mentioned in the bookpushing the sleeping times out

i can't seem to express the amount of milk required - short by 1/2 to 1 oz each time

dd won't feed from one breast and then wait while i express and then feed from the other

dd falls asleep at the breast each time she's fed resulting in a`lot of waking up and then crying - if i put her down she frequently brings back her milk

the 9 am sleep seems to be the only thing that's gong ok so far

any suggestions please - new mum strugglng a bit

if she falls asleep at the breast stroke her cheek or her palm to see if she starts suckling again

if she's asleep pop her in a moses basket and have a rest yourself

sam - the gf book is known to be hopeless when it comes to bf info. It works for some, bit how could one timetable suit evry baby???

Baby Whisperer is just as mad, imho.

pmsl TikTok - They're all mad, but BW is mad in a much nicer, less hitlerish sort of way

thank you all - do you guys give a bottle of formula milk in the evening? I've ehard this can help, but seems a bit of a 'cop out' (wrong term but finding it hard to say what I really mean)

I don't know the GF system well enough to be able to help really I found it easier to express in the evening while DD was asleep (normally sat in the bath, my milk just poured out!) DD was so into her feeds there was no way she would wait for anything.

How about you try for a few days just doing what your DD wants - let her sleep/feed/play etc when she wants, and you can get an idea about what kind of pattern best suits her.

Oh, and formula in the evening - it made no difference whatsoever for me (well, not me, DD )

hi sam, imho all those that try to establish a routine in a 4-week old baby are mad (i must admit i haven't actually read any of them, just because i figured i would be far to unorganised to establish someone else's routine in my babes- i would go crazy having to look up in the book whenever my baby was supposed to sleep/feed/burp/whatever...), so i'm not really the right person to give you advice on that one...
ime if you listen to your baby, they will settle into a routine by themselves. this does take a bit longer than 4 weeks, admittedly, but both my ds-s (one is 2yo, the other is now 7 weeks), settled into a routine around 6 weeks, though in the first 6 weeks they fed v.frequently (sometimes every hour) and v.irregularly (sometimes 5 mins, sometimes 30 mins). maybe you could give your dd a little break until 6 weeks and then try again?? i think that limiting your dd's time at the breast just because gf says so wouldn't be the best thing to do for your milk supply. correct me if i am wrong (tiktok, mears and other bf-specialists) but esp. in those first couple of weeks your milk supply is established by your baby's frequent feeding, so feeding on demand, for as long as your baby wants is the best thing you could do.
re. her falling asleep: i was given the advice to tickle baby on the soles of their feet to wake them/keep them awake, or gently blow in their face.
anyway, good luck, i am sure you'll do fine!

I used loose GF routines successfully with dd1 and she was fully breast fed.
I found it difficult to stick to the times, and used it more as a guide - e.g. three naps per day, shortest one in the afternoon. Can't remember exactly how it goes. I never bothered with the expressing bit, because I'm rubbish at it (I'm lucky to get 2oz in 30 - 40 mins).
I read the Baby Whisperer with dd2 and found that to be helpful in finding a routine etc (however, I would take Tracy Hogg's advice regarding breastfeeding with a large pinch of salt). DD2 started sleeping through the night from about 8.30 pm until 7.00 am quite spontaneously at 10 weeks. I think this was largely down to good luck but perhaps managing naps in the daytime helped a little. The main thing seemed to be not to let her sleep more than 3 hours straight in the daytime without a feed. Oh, and have you tried stroking the palm of her hand or the area in front of her ear towards her jaw to get her to continue feeding when she's starting to nod off?
BTW, although many bf advocates knock GF, without her book I would never have managed to keep on bf-ing with dd1. I had really bad thrush and was in agonising pain from it. I used to cry even at the thought of feeding. Knowing that once I had got the 7.00 am feed out of the way, I wouldn't have to feed again 'til 10.00am (and so on)saved my sanity. Much better that than living in constant dread of the next feed and have no idea when it might be coming. Anyway, I digress...
HTH.

The benefits of breastfeeding are reduced by giving formula. If you want to, and can, you should avoid formula.

Also, if she needs to bf for longer, you should let her.

And I'm another for just going with the flow, I don't get the point of trying to put babies of this age to a schedule. One week they need four naps a day (or something?), the next they'll need three, and you'll need to jig it all around again anyway.

At six months, things are a lot more stable, and a schedule is worth considering, if you want.

Meant to add that I never stuck to the times given for bf-ing either. DD1 was a slow feeder and definitely always needed more time than GF recommended. Make sure you always give your baby as long as she needs.

oh- and re. the formula in the evening. i just got the advice from a friend midwife with a 9-month old to give a bottle of EBM in the evening. she did this from when her dd was 10 weeks, and dd slept through from then.

I used GF as well and totally agree with everything LucyJu says. Important thing is to use GF as a guide, it doesn't go to plan straight off at the beginning. I used it to plan my feeds same as LucyJu. Never expressed much, think I did it in the morning to build up a wee stock but that was all. You'd be insane trying to express as much as she tells you to! Don't get upset if baby doesn't follow routine just try to get back on it at the next opportunity. If a sleep goes wrong get over it and try to waste time till the next feed or whatever. Good luck

I only offered up baby whisperer for the EASY routine and the reading your baby charts .. really haven't read it cover to cover btw .. I do think it is nice to have some kind of book first time round .. as long as you take it as advice rather than must haves

I agree with Twiglett and NQC, my ds slept through at 8 weeks and it was all his own doing. I had started a thread on here "any suggested routine for a 7 wk old" Look it up I was given some great advice. I would say don't try to express too early on as you bfing is just gettign established. Also, if you introduce formuls your milk supply may deteriorate and cause other problems, if you can persevere, please do, it is SO worth it. My ds is now 6m and in a fab routine of his own, our only problem was he would fall asleep on me when having his last feed before bed so now I express 6oz off one side while he has the other, first thing in th morning, and he has that last thing (then I top him up and if he still falls asleep. no prob) as he rarely falls asleep on a bottle.
I read GF and got quite tnse and stressed quite quickly! But what I did find useful as a guide was how much sleep they "could"need, in my book it's a little chart on p125 and I use that to guage. Good luck

I did the GF routines from about 5 weeks and it worked really well for me. The first few days were tough but then ds seemed to fall into the routine and "expect" sleeps or feeds at the timetable times. He was sleeping through the night at 8 weeks and we haven't had a disturbed night since then, which I'm sure is partly due to the GF routines, although there's a lot of luck involved as well - babies are all different little people!

Samhb, don't worry about the expressing, she sets very high benchmarks for the amount to express. But if you stick with it, your milk supply will increase.

4 weeks may be a bit young to expect a routine, but try it again in a couple of weeks.

Another thing is that formula supplementation is no guarantee of a good night's sleep. Lots of formula fed babies are poor sleepers (as are bf babies for that matter). I think there's a large element of luck involved, although I think youcna help or hinder things along according to howyou handle bedtimes, naps, night wakings etc.

Contented Baby book saved my sanity, dd responded to it fantasticaly and was sleeping 12.5 hours a night from 6 weeks..BUT..(and i stress the but) i was bottle feeding from 3 weeks for a start which is slightly easier to keep to a routine and some babies just do not like it.
Basicaly we kept to the feeding times, we kept loosly to the sleeping times as dd was a sleepy baby and didn't stay awake when the book said she should, but it did go well.
Don't get obsessed with it tho, i youu are 10 minutes late feeding your baby it doesn't matter, if your baby demands a feed 15 minutes early it doesn't matter. Babies do like and resond well to routine so just loosly keep to the schedual and it will all fall into place.
When i was bf ing it did help to stroke her cheek to bring her round as well.
Good luck

hehehehe....all you mummies who say GF helped you but you didn't express/express as much/start it until your baby was older/only did an adapted version of it/used it as a guide only/ etc etc.......don't give GF the credit for you finding your own way with your baby simply by being a good parent and responding to your baby's needs and observing them!

GF is very strict - the rules in the book are rules, and you have to follow them (including the time you get up and what you eat for breakfast, ffs). She has no idea how breastfeeding works - it is rubbish about sticking to a particular length of time on the breast (as if everyone's let down and everyone's baby and everyone's days were always the same) and she thinks the breasts make two sorts of milk (which they don't - milk gets fattier as milk is removed purely because the creamier components stick to the storage cells and the ducts).

I could go on

I nearly lost my mind trying to keep up with the GF schedules! Honestly, it's near impossible to program your baby according to the clock, especially at 4 wks old, so don't worry about the times. Me, I did a set bed time at 1 wk old with set routines (bath, a bit of massage with oil, story/cuddle, milk, bed) so that it's lights out at 7pm. I think thanks to this we have never had problems settling him at bedtime, even when we are on holiday etc. I tried to have feeds at the same times (3hr then 4 hourly intervals) during the day but had to be flexible. And naps - well, whenever he was tired he slept, basically. Some babies are slow feeders. You are doing great, just follow your instincts!

i breast feed and followed gf was lucky we got into routine straight away couldnt get the hang of expressing so gave formula feed at 10pm feed and it worked fine for us but she was low birthweight so tendend to go on routine before she should have been on

I'm afraid babies haven't ready TCLB so aren't always that amenable and don't work to a schedule! If having a structure to your day is important to you "use" it loosely, but suspect you'll find that whatever you extract is as much commonsense as anything. Work out what is important to you ie. a regular naptime to give you a break, long periods of sleep at night, and work towards that although I found that as soon as I felt we'd just got into a pattern the baby would change it due to a growth spurt, becoming more alert and physically adept or illness. Giving formula at this time may compromise your supply, unless you express instead and use that in a bottle/cup the next day. Your dd may well step up the pace feeding-wise over the next 2 weeks or so and it is important to follow her demands so your supply catches up quickly.

hth

lucyju summed it up brilliantly in earlier post i nearly gave up breast feeding loads of times due to pain etc but knowing i was in a routine and not demand feeding kept me sane and my baby never cried through hunger her weaning book was also fantastic imo

if you want to use this as yr bible, go with it, but better as yr flexible friend! I found her a godsend, 1st time round but I did tweak on the timings a bit to make it work for me. She gives a lot of sensible advice (for people like me anyway who were clueless 1st time round and without anyone on standby to help or offer advice) and helped structure a great routine that kept me sane and was dependable! 4-6 weeks worked for me in terms of starting to have a routine, but may take longer than GF says in her book. Don't be afraid to learn from her but also trust yr own judgement.

wellsaid misschief without her i think we would have never got dressed and left the house as im totally disorganised!

We started using GF routine at 3 weeks, although I didn't start expressing till 4 weeks (couldn't face getting up even earlier to express first!) Would completely agree with everyone who says to use her as a guide - 15 mins either way on timings won't throw your whole day off. I'd also recommend reading the Baby Whisperer on tired cues etc - I think sometimes I kept my son awake for too long in the afternoon because I was holding out to get closer to the "official" nap time - I wasn't really tuned in to his cues, but BW really helped.

(Would agree with Tiktok that most stuff in GF and BW is common sense - or would be if we all had lots of experience of babies. I had none, so needed a bit of guidance... As you get to know your baby better, you rely on them less and less - I stopped reading GF routines at about 4 months, and just used my own judgment.)

As regards expressing - GF says your supposed to do it so your milk supply is built up ready for growth spurts. I never found that I could identify growth spurts well enough to know when to "release" that extra bit of milk to my son though - so really didn't work for me! (Although growth spurts didn't seem to throw him off schedule anyway.) The one thing I did find expressing useful for was to express about 4oz first thing in the morning, and then empty both sides at about 9.30pm - then I could get an early night and leave my husband to do the 10.30pm feed. (Helpful hint for easy morning expressing - only feed on one side during the night - then in the morning the other side will be nice and full - worked for me )

Also, on feed times - again, just read GF's times as averages - watch what your baby is doing. You can keep them awake by stroking their cheek/ear/chin - or by sitting them upright for a few seconds (BW advice again) - and I think GF recommends a couple of minutes on their play mat to wake them up. Also on long feeds - check that you can hear them swallowing - this is BW advice that really helped me - my son was feeding for an hour or so - and I don't think I was noticing that he was actually becoming more efficient - I read BW at about 3 months, and his feed times suddenly dropped to 40 mins!

Hope you find a routine as useful for your baby as we did!