Is it time to wean? What's normal? (extended bf qn)

[Fenouille]

After a pretty tricky start and lots of support and advice from you lot (particularly TruthSweet) DS and I have made it to almost 15 months! I need some advice again...

We are now down to 2 feeds a day. In the morning he will sometimes suck for a couple of minutes, sometimes only 30 seconds (particularly if there is some distraction). In the evening I tend to feed him down but over the last few weeks he's been waking more and more frequently in the night and screaming until we give him a bottle of milk. The first few times I fed him back to sleep but he would wake again after a few minutes still screaming.

Last night he started shouting almost as soon as I finished feeding him down I really don't have the impression he's getting anything out anymore. I know there's still milk there as I can hand express some (just drops to see if anything still comes out ) DS still seems as keen as usual to suck although very distractible.

Basically I'd like to know if this sounds normal to you ebf?ers or am I flogging a dead horse?

Hi Fenouille - Long time no see! Wow 15m, time has flown (must be the sleep deprivation )!

It sounds like he is used to getting bottles of milk post bf so while he may be happy to 'nurse' he isn't interested in the (relatively) slower flow and smaller amounts that bfing produces (or it pales in comparison, for him, to the bottles).

If you are planning on finishing bfing soon then I'd imagine it would be relatively easy to cease the suckling part of bedtime and just swap it for some cow's milk bottles (though a beaker would be better from an oral development point of view) by just giving them earlier in the bedtime proceedings.

If you want to continue to bf then not giving bottles and bfing some more may help with premature/accidental weaning as bfing sounds a little bit precarious at the moment (not your actual milk supply but the continuation of your DS bfing). It hopefully wouldn't be too hard to break the 'wake in the night = have a bottle' association but it might involve more bfing or using some of the gentle techniques from The No-Cry Sleep Solution (or similar baby-centred book).

How much milk is in the bottles? Is DS having a 'good' dinner or are solids still at the 'experimental' stage (lots on the face/floor/table/wall but not so much in the mouth and stomach)? Is teething a current issue? Does this behaviour ebb and flow or is it pretty much the same - bf, then DS wants bottles and on night waking wants bottles and wakes quickly if bf?

Hello again :) I know, I can barely believe it myself.

Ok, plenty of food for thought, as usual.

1. The bottles normally come anywhere from 3 to 5 hours post-bf - does that make a difference? The first few times I tried to feed him back down maybe 3 or 4 times but he'd always wake up 5-15 minutes later. After a week or so of this we tried a bottle to try to preserve our sanity (we also went back to co-sleeping but he'd swing from wide awake and giggling to screaming manically and didn't seem all that interested in my boobs).
2. I would like to continue with bf but the gentle techniques from no cry sleep solution don't seem to have much effect (and never have done tbh). The only time he really cries is when he's hungry and then there's no stopping it unless you feed him (usually with real food rather than milk these days) like mother like son
3. He generally gets 150 ml but doesn't always finish it.
4. We've just moved from porridge to a more chewy dinner. He got porridge as he was struggling to eat anything in the evening as he was a bit tired, but since Christmas he's developed a bit more stamina. I also want to encourage some self feeding as he is spoon feed by the CM during the day. So yes, this probably does coincide with this change. But it is a bit ebb and flow-y, I'm sure teething is mixed up in it too as he's had teeth on the way pretty constantly for the last month. Tbh I'm not sure he really is only hungry but we're at a loss how to stop the crying. He does suck really well before bed for maybe 15 minutes. I just don't know but I feel it's on the way out

I wonder whether I should give him a sippy cup of milk with dinner?

TBH if you want to continue to bf, adding more cow's milk into his diet isn't going to help maintain his interest in bfing (sorry).

If he is waking just a short while into his sleep cycle, that suggests that he has sleep associations with bfing and if it's not still happening when he moves into the next sleep state he wakes up....I guess he doesn't wake up when he has a bottle because that sleep association hasn't been made.

I found that feeding my DDs then letting them clamber off my lap and walk to their cot/bed (or DH taking them off my lap for a cuddle with Daddy if they weren't walking yet [DD3 didn't walk until approx 17m]) helped add a bit of distance between bfing and sleep. May be something like that would work? I do remember the horror of the 'boob to sleep' magic off switch not working any more, it's happened at different ages with all three of mine but it was no less horrific with DD3 last time as it was the first .

Is there any reason the CM is still spoon feeding your DS? Is it culturally normal in France for this to carry on into the toddler years or does the CM not like mess or ?? (sorry not up on European feeding practices!).

Have you tried teething gels/powders before bedtime to see if that helps any?

If he's not hungry, not in pain, nor thirsty, could he be overtired? Clutching at straws here!

Plenty of straw clutching going on here too It's good to hear a fresh point of view.

I know we need to break the feeding to sleep association but I'm scared DH is away for the next couple of nights but I'll discuss it with him when he's back. We do probably need to bite the bullet on that. Although the feed to sleep off button is getting less and less reliable - DH cuddles him to sleep half the time already.

Wrt the cows milk, I was thinking along the lines of replacing the food he's not eating so well at dinner time. Turned his nose up at it anyway... He does still get a bottle of cow's milk during the day at the CM. The French are very attached to bottles, I'll maybe have a chat with her about getting him onto a cup (we only use cups at home, although for water only). The spoon feeding is because a) BLW seems a lot less common in France and she was very sceptical that such a small baby could feed himself when he started with her, b) she's afraid of him choking and c) he's the littlest and the others are feeding themselves so she's got the time to feed him. She's very experienced and she's got the others feeding themselves no trouble so I'm reluctant to start meddling. I can't imagine that it's pure spoon feeding anyway; he always wants to eat some or all of it himself so I'm guessing they do a duet :)

The dr recommended a dose of calpol (well, up the bum, we are in France after all) for the teething but tbh it didn't seem to be having much effect so we stopped that again. Teething gel seemed to have zero effect last time we tried it but that was some time ago. I'll have to dig it back out and see if it helps now.

Lots to think about. I think it's crunch time though as I'll have a few business trips coming up over the next few weeks and months and if we don't get it sorted out soon I don't think it'll survive the next separation. I'm probably being too pig-headed and should just admit that we've had a good run and wean with a cheery wave to that part of our lives. Why is it so difficult?

Oh, about the sleep cycles. Interesting! The first feed to sleep lasts several hours (if not the whole night) but it's the middle of the night feed to sleeps that bother him. We think he just wants to be with us (the screaming to giggling in two seconds flat when bringing him into our bed was a big for us) and who can blame him for that? But 2.30 am is really not the moment for it and when the feeding him back down stopped working DH was keen to try a bottle - when it worked the first time, although we had a few midnight arguments about it, the temptation to keep trying it was very strong. That said he hasn't gone straight to sleep after the bottle the last couple of times either so we need to find new strategies anyway. And if they help the bf along the way then I won't complain :)

Well being apart doesn't have to mean the end of bfing - I always felt DD2 wasn't particularly attached to bfing but she is 4 now and 'still' bfing.

She has survived strikes, DD3 being born, me having pancreatitis 4 times (2 x 1 week stay where she wouldn't even look at me on visiting let alone bf and an overnight stay or two), me having an op/another hospital stay last year (I am very unlucky), DD3 being admitted 10 times in her first year and me staying with her (the same year I had the pancreatitis and one of those stays was a week long), plus numerous overnight stays in DD3's second year. Still no closer to weaning though! I've not encouraged her to carry on and I do 'don't offer, but occasionally refuse if not convenient' too so I'm not offering her a bf every hour in order to keep her interest up!

Could you try reading a book post bf, something not too exciting or noisy and see if that helps break the association? May be try bfing for a bit but before he goes to sleep say something like 'DS want to have a book? Which book DS?' and hold up two book for him to chose from for you to read to him. Then you are cuddled up and snuggly but not bfing. Might something like that be doable?

Ouch, you have been unlucky. I hope all is well with both you and DD3 now?

Sure, I've already had a few nights away due to business, but as you pointed out in your first response, it's a bit precarious at the moment. And the trips are going to be more frequent this year. So I really want to get it rock solid.

It's been nice chatting this evening. Thanks for your support and suggestions. I think we'd better try getting a 'healthier' bed time routine going (I was thinking of what you've suggested in your last post, he loves reading so I'm sure it'll work) and then see if that sorts the bf problems out. I'll keep you posted.

I'm okay now and DD3's asthma is pretty much under control, we have just moved to wet wrapping for her eczema though - she's my scabby, wheezy child (I also have an pus filled child who whines a lot and an achy jointed child who falls over a lot). I am one lucky woman

Books are a really good night time prop - I bf DD1 for the duration of 'The Very Hungry Caterpillar' for pretty much the 1st trimester of DD2's pg (could only cope with a short feed due to the sensitivity i felt) DD1 took the book to bed every night with her and DH can read the book with out turning the pages! It also helped break up the bf-bed thing. A bath after bfing or even doing PJs after bfing might work too, just in case books are met with derision....

Was lovely talking to you too. All the best

Your children sound delightful Puts my 'problems' into perspective... All the best to you too.

Nah, they're fine - it's just DD1 has got cellulitis for the 3rd time in a year and is a cranky, whiny child who spent the day whinging (I am low on patience after today's scrap fest over what Hello Kitty cartoon to watch (there are 40 to choose from)).

Our problems are our problems, it doesn't make them any easier to bear just because someone else has different/worse/'better' problems (or is that just me?).

Oh well, enough philosophising for one night