Really fed up and doubtful

[metalelephant]

My little girl is 10 weeks old. We had a rocky start, below birth weight till 3 weeks, formula supplementing, low supply etc and thanks to mumsnet, breastfeeding helplines, lactation consultants ( private and hospital based) we managed to ditch the bottle and be ebf for the last 5.

But the evenings are still a nightmare. Despite feeding on demand the milk never seems to be enough. In the daytime it's relatively ok, feeds last around 20-30 mins, between 1.30 to 3 hours ( rarely and only early in the morning) they get progressively more frequent till around 6 when the marathon begins. She is attached to my breast with short gaps till around 11, napping in the breast a lot, sucking on empty, calm when asleep but then crying inconsolably. We cosleep and i'm in bed wirh her in the late evening) After 11 she will sleep til 2 or 3, feed (the best feed of the day as I have more milk and she is satisfied) and then again at. 6, at 8.30 etc.

I'm sure this is all normal but it's bloody hard work and I do nothing else but feed my baby. My 3 year old depends almost entirely on his dad and it feels like I have no time for him :(

We've been at my inlaws for christmas and , even though they are loverly, I hate every minute if this. Baby cries on the breast, I feel upset and exposed, retreat to our room and try to feed her while feeling awkward and upset.

If all this is normal when on earth does it get easier? When will she be able to sleep earlier than 10 or 11, when will I have more milk, or is this never really going to happen? I fear my milk will lessen more if I give her formula in the evening but I dread the cryIng in the night, I'm so stressed for half of the day and can't take much more if this :(

Hi, if your baby is gaining weight ok and having plenty of soiled nappies and doing normal baby things (meaning being awake and alert at times, asleep at others) then this is normal IME.

It is hard, it is tiring, it is frustrating but it is normal for them to feed feed feed in the evenings. The timings you describe are very similar to my experience.

You are correct that supplementing with formula is likely to reduce supply.

It is very normal for babies to go ballistic like this during a growth spurt.

I recall the feeling that I didn't have enough milk. You cannot tell this from the baby feeding - if the baby is growing and healthy in other ways you have enough milk. The baby is feeding a lot because they need to make your breasts make extra milk to provide enough for them as they grow.

I hope you're ok. I promise it does get easier, but 10 weeks is still very little. If you have regular weigh ins & checks with the HV you will know your baby is doing ok healthwise.

I'm a bit crap at posting links but this article might help, see if it is like your baby?

kellymom.com/babyconcerns/fussy-evening.html

Quote - "Cluster feeding often coincides with your baby's fussy time. Baby will nurse a few minutes, pull off, fuss/cry, nurse a few minutes, pull off, fuss/cry... on and on... for hours. This can be VERY frustrating, and mom starts wondering if baby is getting enough milk, if something she is eating is bothering baby, if EVERYTHING she is doing is bothering baby... It can really ruin your confidence, particularly if there is someone else around asking the same questions (your mother, your husband, your mother-in-law).

"This behavior is NORMAL! It has nothing to do with your breastmilk or your mothering. If baby is happy the rest of the day, and baby doesn't seem to be in pain (as with colic) during the fussy time - just keep trying to soothe your baby and don't beat yourself up about the cause. Let baby nurse as long and as often as he will. Recruit dad (or another helper) to bring you food/drink and fetch things (book/remote/phone/etc.) while you are nursing and holding baby."

Obviously if you are worried about anything EXCEPT the amount of time feeding you should speak to your HV.

Thank you duvet and secondcoming, you must be right...I just feel really trapped and helpless and like I'm letting both my children down. My little one because there's not enough food for her and my eldest because I have no time for him!

The only reason I have the time is because my freelancing dh has very little work at the moment and do can take care of our boy. This ofcourse is not great work wise but suits the breastfeeding, but probably won't last forever so no idea what I'll do in a month's time.

I'm writing in bed, while dd is sleepily sucking away, occasionally I hear her swallow, god this is slow and never ending. I'm constantly snapping at dh and then apologise and then snap again and then some more. :(

It's normal but it's a nightmare indeed.

Cheers for you help xx

I found that maltesers + box sets of west wing helped me cope, I just pretended I was going for a nice sit down. I managed to trick myself about half the time!

DS is 10 weeks and we're also at our ILs comments to do with frequency of feeds etc are already getting to me and we've been here a few hours.

Also have a toddler but she goes to bed normally before clustering starts, but the days are a struggle that I deal with mostly by being out at playgroups a lot. For bad early evenings we have In the Night Garden

duvetdayplease, I'm so glad you mentioned the DVD etc thing, I BF 3 children metalelephant and they all cluster fed. I always say to new mothers, prior to the predictable cluster feed session get outta the way stuff that needs to done before you're too tired, then get DVDs, laptop, ALL remote controls, biscuits, cake etc all to reach sit back and relax. Life with older babies and toddlers is so bloody hectic take advantage of this time to be able to sit back and relax and skive from regular household duties. The beauty of BF is also that you can do it one handed, so you can sit and play with older children, jigsaw, reading, operate TV remote control, even make drinks or reach easy to nibble foods. But don't beat yourself up about you're older child, I always thought I would be a mother for as long as they want me to be and a little 3 month distraction is not going to be the basis of our mother/child relationship. Do you understand what I mean? Believe me when I say in a few weeks your baby WILL fall into a predictable feeding routine WITHOUT the cluster feeding. Also, try not to second guess what other people are thinking, you're just beating yourself up. Chin up.

I found taking fenugreek helped to increase my milk supply - it did make me smell a bit funny for a while though! DD2 was like this for a bit and hv suggested that it could be that she just wanted to be held by me and had learnt that bfing was the best way to achieve this - I did then try holding her/carrying her round with me without bfing and it did help a bit. Later she was def using me as a human dummy so given my time over I would have tried to introduce a dummy earlier - she was a very sucky baby and I finally managed to introduce one at 8 months when I stopped bfing - it transformed my life! As I say, given my time over, I would have tried to introduce a dummy earlier, and then kept bfing for longer but hey ho.

Is she happy without you in the pram or car for a bit - maybe DH could take her out each day so you could have some special time with DS.

TSC well apparently loads is 'every few hours' when I asked her clarify the question. Thing is, this is DC2 but DD suited more routine feeding (on just waking normally) where DS just feeds on and off when he's awake. Plus they worried loads that DD was a slow weight gainer, whereas DS is piling on the pounds so you think they'd love it

Yes, I do a fair bit of carrying him round when feeding, but struggling with that now he's getting older. In the house though it's easier to do one handed stuff with her.

OP do you feel like it's not happening every night yet? I find by going out that DS then goes to sleep which gives me time with DD, although initially he used to wake when we stopped, he's not as bad anymore. For playgroups we walk to, the journey sends him off and so we normally get a good stint at the start of the session. Also at such groups there is normally no shortage of people who want to hold a baby and at the children's centres, staff normally help out mums of two more. I do find with DH around I tend to use him more and can't imagine being on my own, but when the week comes you find ways of getting along.

posted too soon, I also find when I need to get jobs done if he's being particularly unsettled then that's where the sling comes in. He goes to sleep, I chop vegetables, DD sits on side trying to get everything chatting away. Sling is good when at the park as well if I think we won't sleep in the buggy or if he wakes (obviously when weather is alright). I imagine your DS is old enough to not need physical help at the park as well?

Rough isnt it? I had an angel baby all day long until 5 oclock and then he would be fussy and cluster feeding - it was so exhausting both physically and mentally - thankfully things are a lot better now.

I second the fenugreek, worked a treat for me, you only need to take it for a couple of days (until you smell funny) before it works, then you can stop. I am sure it had an instant effect too in that it made me feel like I was "doing something" to address the problem and that helped me relax, and on the subject of relexing, I also tried to make a conscious effort to think about how lovely and gorgeous my baby was, and keep as calm as possible. Stress hormones will interfere with your let down, so anything you can do to relax will help.

The fenugreek turned things around for me in about 3 days, - I hope things sort themselves out as quickly for you too.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Lo was born on Oct 12th and is indeed an angel till the early evening when she turns into a wee vampire . I'm not really complaining about her...I'm irritated by me not being able to always satisfy her.

My inlaws are actually the kind that are discreet, caring and don't drop hints... Even though mil didn't breastfeed, she thankfully doesn't comment at all but I do feel that everybody yearns to hold baby when all I want is to keep her near me so I can sort of be ready to feed or cuddle her and of course when she starts fussing I feel awkward and impossible to maintain a discreet feed and then get embarrassed.

My ds goes to nursery 4 days a week, he's a very active boy that starts taking the house down once we're in for a while and I can't quite run after him on the playground ( he's of the fearless/ running away school of thought) and the cluster feeding starts just before 6 which is when he's at home and trying to get my attention

I'll try fenugreek again, it worked in the early days for a day or two and then stopped doing much, though u smelled lovely and syrupy! I took domperidone for a few weeks as I had run out when baby was tiny but have weaned myself of it in the last 10 days or so.

Cheers for coming to my whine rescue - last night was tough and I don't react well
away from home, you all gave me extra hope! Have a lovely Christmas, you're ace x

It is hard to feed discreetly when they are fussing. If I'm feeding in front of people who might get embarrassed, like my dad, I usually end up joking about it and telling baby she has bad table manners and it helps a bit. Good luck and congratulations!

Im at my in laws with all the family and everyone is v supportive of bfing - and lots of babies in the last 7 years so it's very normal. I still retreat to our room to feed DS tho! Just much nicer.

Have you thought about a dummy? You may be thinking your lo is still hungry when actually she wants to suck?

My DS is 8 weeks and in the day feeds then naps etc. In the evenings tho he feeds then won't settle for any length of time. We give him a dummy once he has had a feed.

We've been doing this since 2 weeks old - no issues with supply and DS has maintained his line between 91st and 75th even tho he has a dummy quite a lot and I don't feed him all evening. We do hold and cuddle and can put him down for 30 min stretches. But he only really settles at 11pm when we go to bed. Then he just wakes once at about 3am.

Whats your lo like at night? If she only feeds once or twice between 11pm and morning I would have thought she was actually getting enough in the day.

She doesn't like the dummy, spits it out and looks disgusted! We don't have one here but will try a different texture one when we go back home...

It was a tough evening yesterday, I just panic when she won't stop crying. I hope she starts sleeping a bit more in the evenings, I would rather she woke up more times at night than cluster feed for the entire evening (5-6 hours on and off).

But you're right, I have to be patient, I'm so lucky she's putting weight on and is a chubby, smiley little thing for most of the day.

metalelephant you doing so well! honestly have huge admiration for you. as you know i swapped to ff and litte monkey still not gaining enough weight! i hope things settle for you soon, in the meantime wine and chocolate can't hurt!

Merry Christmas dribbleface, lovely to hear from you again! I hope you lo starts putting weight on more quickly, but the main thing is that he's healthy and perhaps he's just naturally slim!

I must say I'm getting quite tired of nursing on the soda, especially as I get bored and spend too much time pondering on what I will eat next so I'm putting on weight rather enthusiastically!

Have a brilliant time with your family and a super New Year! x

Nursing on the soda = on the sofa

Oh treadmillmom I so needed to hear that. My baby is 3 days old and feeding constantly. I got home from hospital today & was so looking forward to cuddling my 1yr old, but as soon as I got in the baby needed feeding, and I felt so bad for him. He's all insecure, & I want to be with him but I'm always tied to the newborn. But then of course she needs what she needs and I so want to give it to her. It's horrible. I feel so torn . He's a Daddy's boy anyway, so I feel so crap about my relationship with him. Sorry for rant. Just glad I found this thread.

Dribbleface, I'm sorry if my comment on your ds's weight sounded flippant, I certainly didn't mean it like that but retreading my post I worry it may have sounded unnecessarily optimistic... I know how worrying baby weight issues are, especially as we went through it too with dd and with ds as well.

I know everyone else seemed to get the hang of it around 6 weeks, but for me it took to 12 weeks to crack breastfeeding.

Everything sounds perfectly normal, and remember your hormones are still settling down to.

One trick I found with the dummy is to tap it for a few minutes when you first put it in. My husband taught me this one and it worked for usl.

Good luck and remember chocolate cake and a glass of wine work wonders when it all seems to be getting too much.

I came to mn a few years ago when I was experiencing the exact same thing. It is unbelievably difficult to deal with the mental stress of cluster feeding when you are already sleep deprived

However, ita with the sling idea and also the herbs for increasing your milk supply. I took fenugreek with dd1 but with dd2 I took a thing called special blend which contains fenugreek amongst other herbs and I noticed a clear difference within 2 days.

It is so hard to remain positive and believe in your own ability to nourish your beautiful baby when you are dealing with this every night (but your body is made to and you can!). I felt that taking the herbs (or even just having them as stand by) kind of gave me the confidence and belief that I required to get through it.

You can do this, it will be over in no time and when it is, you can enjoy the wonderful pleasures that bfing brings xx

Hang in there

So moved by the support offered on this thread...thank you xxx