15 week old won't wind - help!

[davidtennantsmistress]

DS2 he's BF, by day we'll do 3 sometimes 4 hours, other times 1.5 hours - naps are sporadic - 20 mins half hour, when at home thou he can go for an hour.

night times of late have been a night mare, about 3 weeks ago we started a formula top up, hungry baby aptimal (only one at the time) he started only taking 2 oz but now 3 oz, this is after both boobs. he used to sleep until about 2 ish however, he's now waking at 9-10 as well, looking for more food.

then during the night he'll wake at (last night for example) fed 7 fed 9.45 (3oz formula), fed 12.20 2(3 oz formula) 4 (awake for 1.5 hours) slept till 7 fed again at 8.

my worry is that he won't sleep for very long (unless held mainly)
he won't wind, we tried infacol to no avail, we've tried gripe water (HV recommended - worked for a few days however not so much any more) also he's had gavisgon from a previous doctor which was stopped as it seemed to make him worse.

how do I get him to wind? we can litterlaly pat/walk about etc for a good 20 mins only to have a little burp. he farts for england thou.

also I don't want to stop feeding him, and the formula top ups are basically for my sanity (have a ds of 5, and currently doing a school run by bus which takes a good 1.5 hours a time) :() so I need to be getting more sleep - other nights he can be up every hour.

My HV isn't too much use tbh, but i'm not sure where to go from here - is it just him - do we suffer until he's older & out grows this, all I keep being told is it's normal - surely it's not?

help!

It sounds like its several different things:

1. he is coming up to the 4 month sleep regression/mega growth spurt
2. why are you giving formula? Is it in the hope that he will sleep longer? From what I've read and understand, babies will usually take a bottle after breast but this does not indicate hunger. By giving him formula you are undermining breast feeding and telling your breasts to produce less than is actually needed.
3. have you tried colief? You put in a bottle of EBM or formula before a feed (or with a feed if feeding by bottle). Magical stuff. Soooo much better than infacol which may as well be placebo for all the good it does.
4. have you tried dropping formula to see if that's the culprit? Formula is harder for them to digest than breast milk.

I'm no expert but I'm sure organic or tiktok will be along soon with better advice.

Not sure why you think the problem is wind, DTM???? There's no minimum amount a baby needs to burp out at any one time :) There's no rule about babies having to burp at all. Most babies of this age are not being patted and walked about after feeds, I would say. Fine if you want to do it, but it sounds time consuming and anxiety making!

He may prefer to sleep in close contact with you - you say he wants to be held. That's normal, and not a sign of wind. It sounds like the efforts to get him to burp are fruitless and exhausting - would it not be easier just to have him in a sling and at night, co-sleep?

His night time waking sounds well within normal for a baby of this age. If you want to save time, try dropping the formula at night and just put him on the breast again.

Giving bottles in the night is usually harder work than just bf. And you get back to sleep more quickly. The studies done which look at this show pretty clearly that babies bf in the night give their parents more sleep than the ones that get bottles....and sleep's important :) :)

hi banana, we started it as it was the mega 12 week spurt and I couldn't keep up (literally with him) now particually the one at bed time he seems to like to have a final bit for 'settle' but yes the idea was that he would go a little longer. I also was wondering if the 2oz thing was due to the fact the babies will have any bottles as you say after the boob.

i'm quite confident that my milk is enough/he's getting enough as by day he's quite settled.

am yet to try the coleif (sp) I did with DS1, perhaps that maybe best to try.

DS2 seems to have got himself into these habbits, esp the 4am one, it's not like i'm expecting a 7-7 baby but a little bit more would be nice lol.

Why do you think it's wind? My 12 w old very rarely burps or farts.

Am I right in thinking that farting is also wind, wind can come from either end?
Sometimes my DS won't burp but trumps for England!

:) he is usually in with me tik, however what makes me think the wind, is the fact he's squirming griping and basically trying to climb up my body when he's over my shoulder. (can also hear his little tummy)

usually he's asleep in the cradle next to me.

(plus read on the side of a packet of the comfort formual that farting is a sign of wind/colic - I assumed until I read that that any wind up or down is getting it out?)

(he has both during the night btw boob/bottle. :)) - boobs first.

I'd be inclined to drop the bottle if he's having both and still not sleeping longer. He sounds completely normal in regards to his wakings and if you need sleep the best thing to do would be drop the bottle and co-sleep. Might solve the wind problem too.

OK.....hearing the tummy gurgle and swirl is normal. Put your ear next to anyone's abdomen and you'll hear all sorts. Does not mean 'wind'; means 'digestion happening in here' (why would wind make noises anyway?). The squirming and wriggling when he's over your shoulder may just mean 'I want to be in a different position - please lie down/lie me down or something else anyway'.

Farting is air, for sure, but it's a physiological process which does not mean 'a problem with wind'. Making a pathology out of a normal process is how commercial entities make their money :) Formula milk manufacturers made squillions out of the notion that babies who want to bf more often than 3-4 hourly are 'not getting enough breastmilk'. No surprise to me at all that their 'comfort' milks tell mothers something else normal = a problem their product can resolve. I have seen the 'research' on 'comfort' milks sent to HCPs. It's worthless?

How do you feel about co-sleeping ie co-bedding?

Basically, one option for you is to accept your baby is going through a stage where for whatever physiological/developmental/nutritional/emotional reason, he needs to feed more often than he did a little while ago. And then not to fight it, but work out how you can meet these normal needs with the least disruption to your own need for sleep. What do you think?

No ? after worthless, BTW - it is worthless :)

i'm quite happy to have him next to me - however the thing he is won't settle next to me, he squirms etc the same laying down (hunches up grunting) as he does on the shoulder, and i'm lothe to get up at 4am every day for an hour & half when i have to be up by 6.30am anyway to get DS1 up 7 out the door for 8.10 for the bus to school. dp 7 i aren't sitting down until 8 at the earliest of a night so it's not really an option to go to sleep earlier when he does - as we like to have our hour's peace before we do go to bed.

Did the wriggly behaviour start after you introduced formula?

Some babies do find cows milk harder to digest and can cause tummy trouble. Dairy is hard to digest until you get used to it. We gave DS formula and saw quite quickly the change so stopped and he got better. So Id stop the formula for a few days and see what happens.

You can try popping him in his front for a bit to see if that helps? Tummy time is good for getting wind out - I used to do it a few times a day (not too soon post feed) and before bath time.

There's a pretty big growth spurt about now.

the laying down is since yes, but the other no that's always been the same.

will give tummy time a try & also dropping the bottle for a few nights, but not holding out too much hope - would EBM have the same effect?

my dt2 was a nightmare for not giving up wind till 1 day i worked out that if i sat him straight up, supported his head and made sure his neck was straight it was almost instant. if he didnt give up wind after a min or 2 id start feeding him again and try again after a couple more oz. Once i found out what worked for him it made feeding easier (i was generally feeding the twins at the same time) dt1 would just burp when she wanted lol she would stop sucking, let out a huge burp then carry on lol

I was told by my HV that if nothing comes out from 5min of burping, stop. It's pointless. I asked her because I never seem to be able to bring up wind. After timing myself for a week, I stopped burping DD. And accept all the other behaviour as normal. It makes nights even easier since its just 5min feed and back to sleep.

Like starshaker basically DD burps when she wants to. All the patting makes no difference.

I find that when I take an antenatal class on bf, even with people who really have zero experience with babies, the one thing they all 'know' about babies is that they absolutely must be winded after every feed.

This is how powerful the winding thing is in our culture.

Some babies seem to need a bit of patting and jiggling or whatever and seem genuinely uncomfortable if they don't get it.

But the majority of babies really don't - they burp or they don't, they fart or they don't (usually, in both cases, they do, of course, but without artificial assistance :) )

If he's getting wind from the formula itself as opposed to the bottle then EBM wouldn't have the same effect, no.

The bottom wind makes me suspect the formula. If it's more top wind then it could be he's taking air in when bottle feeding so maybe change bottles or be careful about the air?

yes we rub/pat as he's genuinely in discomfort without it, however that said - he's had 2 feeds this morning which have preceeded naps - first for 2 hours, second is currently on going - lets hope he's not using my boob to fall asleep on/with as a prop. althou atm any way to get us all having sleep is very welcome.

DTM: " lets hope he's not using my boob to fall asleep on/with as a prop"

And that would be a bad thing... why???? :) Just as you say, hurrah for the extra sleep!

This is normal for a 15 week old baby.

It won't last forever. Don't fall into the way of thinking 'oh no, he's doing X...what if this means he will always do X? Eeek....I must change X!'

He - and you - will develop other props and strategies to get to sleep.

:)