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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Breastfeeding nightmares for first time mum :-(

21 replies

lizzywig · 04/12/2011 17:08

I'm new here so please be gentle, apologies this is long but I want to include everything. My daughter will be 4 weeks this Thursday, she was born 8lb 8oz.

When at the hospital I spent time getting the midwives to check I was bf correctly and was told I had a good latch. On day 1 home the midwife came out and during a chat she said my daughter would have a growth spurt around day 3 and she advised to just feed on demand. Being a first time mum I took this at face value, i.e. feed every time she cried (rather than now I realise feed when she is hungry and making hunger type motions). Day 3 came and she screamed all night between 11pm - 8:30am, I fed her the whole time only stopping when she fell asleep. My milk still hadn't come in at this point so shattered and worried she was starving we dashed to the supermarket to get formula. We didn't use it until the next night when she had been up screaming again until 3am and I couldn't seem to satisfy her from my numerous attempts at feeding. So we gave her 3oz of formula and she gulped it down in 5 mins, stopped and spent the next hour quietly looking around, obviously content. Day 5 a different midwife came out and I discussed all of this with her, my daughter was weighed and dropped to 7lb 9oz and was told this was a serious loss and that she's lost too much weight, midwife deduced that my milk had still not come in properly and to try expressing with an electric pump to increase my supply, to try topping up with this and if I do not get enough then to top up with formula. We did this and it worked well, by day 12 our daughter was just above her birth weight.

Unfortunately although she is steadily gainly weight and now 9lb 7oz we are still stuck in this rut. Feeding is not going well. She feeds roughly every 3 hours and I will always offer breast first, we start on one breast and she always has a good latch, she's well and truely glued on, sometimes she'll suck well and if she comes off I put her back on until I'm sure it's 'run out' and she needs to move to breast 2. Other times she'll fall asleep after 10 mins, but if I move her she'll scream blue murder and make all sorts of movements which indicate she's still hungry, when I reattach she eats like she's never going to eat again....and then falls asleep after a couple of minutes. I have tried stripping her down to her nappy, using a cool wash cloth to keep her awake, blowing on her, tickling her, talking to her, basically everything I can think of, but even if I do get her to wake up this pattern will only repeat. Sometimes I think she's sucking for comfort rather than nourishment and have been advised giving her a dummy but we really don't want to do this. Usually I try to feed her for 40 mins and we do manage this on occasion but only from a lot of effort from me trying to keep her awake. More often than not she feeds for 25 mins, because I struggle to keep her awake I will then offer her expressed milk and if necessary formula and my lord does she guzzle it like it's going out of fashion, so I know she's hungry, sometimes she'll spit it out and so I do stop knowing she must be full. It's so hard to read the signals, I don't even think she knows what she wants, she must be confused sometimes!!

We really want to persist with breastfeeding but this is exhausting. The last week I've tried a breastfeeding bootcamp, everything set up ready in my room and each time she needs to eat we go up and just sit and concentrate on getting her fed, no distractions but I can find this takes up to two hours but after she is content. I find that all day long I'm feeding/expressing/sterilising non stop. I have been writing down every single feed she's had since she was a week old because this is what I was advised by a midwife and I find it helps to see patterns and see how much she is eating she day but everything is getting too much. I feel like giving up but 1) I don't want to and 2) it's not in my nature. I've asked for help from a midwife (who has since discharged us so that's to no avail) and my health visitor who says someone can come out but it might not be for a while....! Heard nothing since.

I'm at a total loss, I'm trying sooooo hard but this is shattering. I suffered from extreme pgp in pregnancy and was on crutches for most of it, I felt like I didn't get to enjoy my pregnancy because of this and now I feel like it's going to be like this forever, I know it won't but I can't see it changing because I don't know what's wrong. Any ideas?

OP posts:
NormaSparklerFlashBangAhhh · 04/12/2011 17:12

Can you find a local bf group?

What you are found does sound exhausting.

Some lively knowledgeable ppl will be along in a mo

NormaSparklerFlashBangAhhh · 04/12/2011 17:13

Doing. Not found. Damn autocorrect

NormaSparklerFlashBangAhhh · 04/12/2011 17:14

Oh and lovely not lively. Sigh

TruthSweet · 04/12/2011 18:35

It does sound like you have had a tough time. Bfing, expressing, ebm/formula feeding is the most labour intensive and time consuming way to feed a baby (been there done that, came out the other side though luckily!).

Can I ask a lot few questions?

How often does baby feed a day? Feed one sided, two sided or more?

How many times a day do you express? Single side/both sides? What are you expressing with (by hand, hand pump, electric, double electric, hospital grade?)?

How much formula and how much ebm does she have?

How often are 'top-ups' given? After each feed or?? What triggers the offering of a top-up? Do you put baby back to the breast after a top-up?

When you did the 'Bfing Bootcamp' did you not stay skin to skin the whole time as you mention going back upstairs?

You mention trying to feed her for 40 mins and sometimes she manages this - has 40 mins been given as a bench mark for you to aim for?

Did you know you don't have to sterilise the pump (assuming you use one) each time you use it? You just need to do it once in 24hr and either rinse with hot soapy water between uses or stick the pump in a ziplock/plastic bag in the fridge (assuming baby is not ill or prem).

nuttyone · 04/12/2011 20:49

Well done you!!
We had a similar ride with first child too. You are doing fab. I just fed every time she cried and would keep going and going. The hv said to feed every 2 hrs but we were still feeding at the 2 hour point so that never happened. It was constant from 9-6pm then 8pm-2am. 5 minutes feeding at best then fell asleep - tried to put down = scream - back on for a few mins.... cycle repeats

At 8 weeks it improved, BF lady said to quit formula (at 4/52 even though not back to birth weight) and just go BF. Why don't you scrap the formula and expressing and feed on demand again. No doubt you will have a baby attached 24/7 for 3-4 days but you can cut out the bottle faf? If you do it for 2 weeks and then get weight checked you'll be able to see that baby has gained weight - therefore you are making enough milk / feeding enough. After this you can try to differentiate comfort sucking from hunger.

Mammig · 04/12/2011 21:12

You could try to put your baby in a sling and breastfeed in the sling. When DD was smaller she could spend hours suckling away which was good I think for establishing supply.

Dalrymps · 04/12/2011 21:26

You are doing so well. I have done the expressing/ bfing / formula route with ds1, exhausting.

I really would recommend getting in touch with your local bfing group, both times for me this was the difference between success and failure. Also ask them, or your hv if there is a lactation consultant in your area you can see and keep pushing to see her ASAP if there is one.

I'd say try to relax about how long baby feeds for, sometimes babies have a small snack and other times a big meal. Just keep offering alternate breasts until baby seems satisfied.

It's normal for baby to fall asleep for a while during feeds as the hormones temporarily knock them outSmile They do come round and want more milk though usually, as you have noticed!

The best thing you can do is get some good quality help so that's why I think the bfing group would be your next stepSmile

Caz10 · 04/12/2011 21:28

You poor thing :( well done so far. IMO the ONLY thing that you need right now is good real life support. Call the bfn and la leche league, find out where your nearest group is, or see if a supporter would even come to your house. When you find a group/advisor that suits you, stick with them! Sadly HVs are not as well trained in bf as they should be, a bf supporter will really help you. I'll just go and google the details for you!

Caz10 · 04/12/2011 21:29

www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/

Caz10 · 04/12/2011 21:31

Oops sorry meant to make it a link

Also see I have crossed posts with dalrymps, who speaks sense!

NoGoodAtHousework · 04/12/2011 21:38

Also some sure start centres have breastfeeding groups which can be helpful (unfortunately I found mine too late and had already virtually given up) I have tried a couple of local groups and have really settled in at one. Even without the breastfeeding advisors, the other mums are great for advice.

Albrecht · 04/12/2011 21:49

Some babies feed for 5 mins, some for hours - both can be normal for them. And its true, its absolutely normal (and believe me a good thing later on) for them to fall asleep while feeding. I can understand in the begining you were worried about weight loss so felt you had to keep her awake but now is maybe the time to relax a little and go with what she is doing.

Bf support group or ringing a helpline (here) is a good way to form a plan of how to drop expressing etc., if that is what you want, while talking through the specifics of her behaviour and weight to reassure you.

Taking milk from a bottle is a lot easier than breastfeeding so it is possible for a baby to take more milk than they actually want/need this way. I remember with ds letting him fall alseep feeding on my lap, wait say 20 mins and if he didn't wake try and put him down, if he did just offer the next breast even if he'd had it recently. And comfort sucking is fine in such a small baby (she needs you to be close by to feel safe), she will still get a little milk this way and it still stimulates your supply.

(Also I'd ditch the writing down all feeds thing if you have too much to do.)

hillyhilly · 04/12/2011 21:49

Too easy for me to say 7 years down the line but you are a bit over thinking it I think, feed when she cries/ seems hungry but really you are making life extra hard by trying to give bottle too as it's like you have the worst of both worlds.

flamegirl77 · 04/12/2011 23:29

Great advice above. Also as baby gets bigger she will become more alert, sleep less and get more efficient at feeding.

I would camp on the sofa for a couple of days in front of the TV with lots of snacks and cuddle DD and offer your breast whenever she stirs. I watched a lot of Tv and ate a lot of biscuits and it was a great excuse to chill out. I miss the lovely long feeds! My daughter is 13 weeks and feeding much more efficiently after losing 12% of body weight and not regaining for four weeks.

Congratulations and good luck.

Dalrymps · 04/12/2011 23:35

Yes, meant to say. The bfing drop in group I go to is at my local sure start centre so try there if you have one Smile

lizzywig · 21/12/2011 15:36

Thank you everyone for your wonderful advice, I really appreciate it. So I've been trying to cut out the bottle at everyone's advice but I'm not sure it's going so well.

In answer to some earlier questions, she was feeding every 2-3 hours but now every hour at night and every 5 or 6 hours at day depending on how long she sleeps. I?ve been expressing (single, tommee tippee electric) 2-3 times a day each time for approx 20 mins and getting 5oz out a day. She was feeding for approx 40 mins and getting topped up with 2oz of formula or ebm. Top ups were only given if I?d been feeding for over 40 mins (sometimes I would go to an hour) and she wanted more. I?ve also been having back problems which means I?m finding sitting for long periods difficult. The 40 min mark was suggested by Sally Inch (www.babycentre.co.uk/expert/panelist/), she said anything longer than this and the baby would not be eating, just suckling. The bootcamp was where I would go upstairs every time she wanted to feed and just stay and sit for as long as she wanted, we were skin to skin.

For the last week I've been feeding on demand and cut out bottles, the turning point for this has been being around older/wiser/more experienced mothers/grandmothers/family friends who have all sorts of tips and advice. I'd fed my daughter and burped her and gave her to a family friend who'd come to see her for a cuddle and the friend sat there putting her on the back saying in a nice way how much trapped wind she still hand. My daughter was wriggling around like crazy but after my friend worked her magic my daughter was fine and content. So I got to thinking that maybe I hadn't been winding her enough. I've also found that I've started to understand her cries which perhaps on some occasions I've misinterpreted hunger with tiredness. So combining extra burping and putting her down for naps she was able to come off the bottle.

However on Sunday she was content and happy all day long and Sunday night she screamed all night again. She would literally only sleep for an hour at a time and I would try to feed her, she'd go for 5 mins and fall asleep, there was nothing I could do to wake her. This repeated until 8am. Up until then she's been sleeping min 4 hrs at a time at night. Then y'day day time she finally went to sleep at 8am and slept through until 2pm!! Then she woke up and wanted feeding and ate for 50 mins, stayed awake for another 30 mins and then went back to sleep for another 4 hours. Bed time comes around and she screams all night and repeats the same pattern of the previous night. Being someone who is physically incapable of sleeping during the day I can tell you I'm exhausted. I've been throwing up today and going all dizzy I'm so tired but still can't sleep even though she's been sleeping. So I after 4 hours of sleep earlier today I woke her up and fed her on both breasts because she kept taking herself off of no. 1 and fed for 30 mins. Then she started getting all sleepy again so I woke her up and bit and gave her forumula. Why? Because 1) she's hardly eaten anything in 48 hours (overnight it's literally 5 mins every hour and only 2 big feeds during the day) and 2) she's now only having 2-3 wet nappies a day.

I am at my wits end ladies, I'm totally disheartened.

OP posts:
jocie · 21/12/2011 16:22

it sounds like she's still got her days and nights mixed up.
Have you tried feeding lying down? this was a godsend for me, it ment i could doze whilst feeding. ( in our bed which was set up for safe co sleeping)
Also if you are doing 'boot camp' you could lie down for those feeds even if you don't doze at least you are resting. (only lie down to feed on a bed or the floor though never a sofa)
Make sure any night feeds are down with as little fuss as poss and as little light as poss so she starts to get used to which is day and which is night. This also means that day feeds are done with more noise and light so she can start to realise its daytime.
Try and not let her get through each day without having about 7ish feeds, these might be longer ones but some of them might be shorter ones. We only have 3 big meals a day don't we but we have snacks imbetween and drinks. breastmilk is all of these things for babies.
Please believe it will get easier and then once you are both settled in a nice pattern you will be able to go out and about without having to worry if you'e got all the bits and pieces you need to make up a bottle and have it at the right temp.
If you can definately get to a local bf group.
Hope you turn the corner soon
You are doing a great job, well done

nancerama · 21/12/2011 16:35

There are ladies on this board who are very experienced and who will no doubt give you excellent advice. I'm no expert, but just wanted to offer you support.

Hang in there - breastfeeding is hard - it's a skill you and baby have to learn, but it does get easier.

Breast fed babies don't fit in well with schedules or routines - don't get hung up on when they feed or for how long. So long as you're getting wet and dirty nappies you know that plenty is going in. It's a bit of a leap of faith because you can't see what's going in so you have to rely on what's coming out!

Please please please seek out breastfeeding support groups in your area. It's amazing how many friends who couldn't get breast feeding to work refused to go to them because they were embarrassed they were finding it difficult. These groups are made for people having a tough time. You will get help and advice and will no doubt make some friends there too.

If you don't have a group nearby, call La Leche League, the Breastfeeding Network or the NCT. All these groups have advice lines and can put you in contact with experts in your area. Their advice may contradict the advice of your midwives and health visitors. Unfortunately there are a lot of midwives and health visitors who aren't properly trained regarding breast feeding and who give some very misleading advice.

Good luck. It will all fall into place very soon, I'm sure x

angelpuss · 21/12/2011 16:47

I really feel for you lizzywig and can remember how hard breastfeeding can be in those first few weeks.

My DS would only feed sometimes for 5-10 minutes, but he would feed every 1.5 to 2 hours, day and night! I was like you and was writing down every feed and how long it lasted and I think I stressed myself out so much about it that it can't have been good for either me or him.

I didn't get much help from MW or HV and spent alot of time trawling the internet in between feeds or would even be NAK! The thing that helped me the most was the bf group at the Surestart centre. That made the difference when I was feeling at my lowest with feeding.

My DS also suffered alot with wind/colic and benefited from baby massage to help ease that.

And I know that everyone always says that it does get easier, but really and truthfully it does. If someone had told me when I started out that I would still be BF 14 months later I would never have believed them.

Make sure that you are drinking plenty of fluids Brew to keep yourself hydrated, make sure you have plenty to eat with all the calories that you're using and try to hang in there

angelpuss · 21/12/2011 16:51

Xmas Smile Some great advice there jocie re: the day/night differences and also with trying to feed lying down. I had forgotten about those things, but they did help massively when I was having problems x

TruthSweet · 21/12/2011 17:12

Ok - first rule of breastfeeding is 'Feed the baby' and if baby is only doing 2-3 wet nappies a day they needing feeding one way or another - now this isn't anything you are doing wrong or not doing but baby sounds like they need some supplemental feeds if they aren't feeding well at the breast.

She really needs to be feeding 8-12+ times a day and having 6 wet disposable nappies.

It does sound like you would benefit from speaking to a BFC/IBCLC in person to see you and your DD and how she feeds.

This might be interesting reading re. wind. for a later date.

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