To stop or not to stop - and to feel guilty either way

[koalabear]

Rant following ....
My daughter is 6 weeks old. My son is 20 months old. I breast fed my son until he ditched me at 7 months for the bottle. I am trying to breast feed my daughter.
The major impediment to this is that it sends my son into an absolute fury, and whilst I was feeding her a few days ago, he went into a cupboard and started throwing crockery on the tiled kitchen floor .
He will also come up to me and try to pull my hands away from her, or her head away from my breast.
Now, try as I might, I can't distract him via the usually suggested means (food, tv, books, etc). And of course, I am making time for just him and me without the newly arrived baby. However, none of this seems to be working and he just seems to be getting more and more upset.
It doesn't help that my daughter is a big, and very hungry baby, and is demanding a feed about every two hours. So this state of war in our house is fairly much a constant factor at present.
I have tried expressing and giving in a bottle, which goes down better with my son, but in my case, in the absence of actual feeding, ends up decreasing my supply in the long run.
So, what do do?
If I stop, harmony is restored to the house, but I deprive my daughter of breast feeding.
If I don't stop, we continue with havoc, but at least I am giving my daughter the same as I gave my son.
To add to the picture, my husband leaves in 3 weeks for a new job in a new country, and I will not be leaving to join him for a couple of months (which leaves me to manage both of them 24/7).
I feel like I could cope better if I bottle fed, but I am not sure this is the right thing to do, or the best thing for my daughter.
Also, minor point though it is, my MIL is ardently against my BFing, and a part of me doesn't want to give up to give her any amunition or satisfaction .
I am not sure if I am asking a question here, or just needing to be heard.
Thanks for reading.

Ack, that sounds like a real struggle. You have my sympathy.

Any chance of you getting any sort of a break from your DS? Any playgroup or similar that would give you a morning off, here and there?

Can you cuddle him while feeding your DD? I used to lie in bed, breastfeeding DS2, while reading to DS1. Or can you breastfeed in a sling, so you can still wander about and keep your DS happy?

The breastfeeding will get better, with your DD, she will feed faster, and less often, as time goes on. And your DS will cope.

Any chance you can stick him in a playpen or other time out place (strapped in pram?), when you're feeding, and he goes on a tantrum? So he's safe, and out of trouble, and punished for his behaviour by being very very bored for the duration? Might not work, though, it might make him associate you feeding your DD with him being punished ...

You poor thing! I have to say, I think challenging, jealous behaviour peaks around now and until 11 weeks or so, then fades so I wouldn't give up just yet. Also, I think his bad behaviour needs punishing/consequences, even if you do feel guilty for imposing a sibling on him! So smashing stuff etc equals naughty step or being put out of the room - every time, no exceptions.
I had abigger gap - three years, which helped because I could talk to him and explain that this was how he was fed and how babies are fed and I can see it is harder with a 20month old. Are you getting help and support from friends or family?

Agree that feeding will get easier quite soon. Also do try to get out as much as possible. I had lots of one on one time with ds as he was on the buggy board while dd slept in her pram. Also going to playgroups etc will mean he is distracted and having fun while you feed, which may help him

I had this a bit, although DD didnt wreck the house she was spiteful to DS.

It got better over time. Have you tried the special toy thing that he's only allowed to play with when you are feeding?

I resorted to recording a dozen noddy programmes on sky plus and playing them when feeding as noddy was DD's thing at the time.

DS is nearly 9 months and i am still b/feeding. The only hinderence i have now is that DS adores his sister and is totally distracted by her when she's in the room and regularly jerks his head back to look at her

NQC - yes, he is going to playgroup two mornings a week. I tried the dual cuddling, but he just keeps trying to pull her off my breast, so it ends up a struggle.

Aloha - we have just started putting him "out of the room" (he wont stay on a naughty step, so we have been putting him somewhere boring and dull and explaining to him what he did was wrong - not sure if this is working yet). My husband is very very supportive, but is leaving soon, my family all live abroad, and my MIL is the anti-breastfeeding campainer from h*.

The only thing I have thought of so far was to give her bottles during the day, and breastfeed her at night when my son is in bed - but I think this will eventually have problems with supply.

I also found that explaining to DD (although she was 4 months older than yours) that DS was having his milk, same as she had hers (she still has a cup of warm milk morning and night). Does he understand what you are doing at all?

QueenVic - I think the TV thing is a great suggestion, but he wont sit and watch it. The only thing he has ever been interested in (and that was for about 3 minutes) was Wallace and Gromit

I did thing about putting him in his high chair (along the lines NQC suggests) but eating is struggle enough that I don't want to give him bad associations with this.

I think that's not a good idea if you do want to breastfeed tbh, and is letting a 20 month old dictate your choices to perhaps an unhealthy degree for all of you - though it is your choice of course.

Remember, the feeds will get less frequent, his shock at having a sibling will fade and you can get through this. What about a new vid he ONLY gets to watch when you breastfeed. Or a toy ditto (as suggested) or taking him to playgroups and feeding there.

I tell him that she is having her milk just like he has his milk, which works for a couple of minutes until he gets bored (not a great attention span) and then it is back to tears and "Mummy - cuddle?" (which means, "get rid of her and let me sit on your lap")

Sorry - x-posted.

Aloha - yes, I will try new vid and toy, and thanks for reminding me that this will all pass - it is so easy to forget that there is light at the end of the tunnel when you are sleep deprived with the body of a deflated tractor tire

My DCs have exactly the same age gap and I used to snuggle DD up to me and read her a story with highly dexterous one-handed turning of the page

Alternatively snuggled up listening to a story tape might work?

But irrespective of what we were doing - she spent nearly every feed, cuddled up next to me - one arm round her and one round little DS.

Does he help with nappy changes etc?

no, he has only recently worked out what a nappy is - i might try to get him more involved though - good idea

I found that helped quite a bit - DD was still doing things with mummy but mummy was still getting the basic functions done.

Have had to restrain DD with the nappy cream quite a few times though!

koalabear - very difficult situation, and lots of sympathy for it. What toddlers really need - as distinct from what they happen to want in the short term - is an adult who is in control and who calmly sets boundaries and sticks to them.

It is perfectly reasonable for you to give the baby what she needs, which happens to be frequent breastfeeding. This, as you know, also has long term benefits for her health.

Your little boy is understandably jealous and confused and at 20 months is not capable of controlling his behaviour and the expressions of his anger without help. He needs you to teach him to control it. Throwing cutlery and attacking the baby is just not acceptable (sorry to siund like SuperNanny!!) ...to deal with that by stopping feeding the baby is i) to show him he is right to feel angry and jealous ii) to give him massive powers which at 20 months he should not think he has iii) to make a child out of you, and an adult out of him iv) to deprive yourself of what will become a much easier way to feed your baby v) to stop doing something good and healthful for your daughter which at some point you will need to explain to her - 'was I breastfed, mummy? How long for?' - unless you decide to lie and if MIL is still around you might be caught out!

This period will pass. I don't believe that harmony will return to the house just because you bottle feed. He will find other reasons and occasions to be jealous and angry. If you remain calm, consistent and especially consistent with the special time you keep for him alone he will calm down, knowing you love him and you are not displacing him.

I have a 15 month age gap between my 2 DD's and I really, really struggled to bf DD2 with DD1 around - she would hit me, hit DD2, pull DD2 away from my breast, lie on the floor and scream, wreck the joint - ANYTHING to get my attention - She was INSANELY jealous - It was quite a shock.

So I have every sympathy with you koalabear - I bought DD1 a doll and that really seemed to help a lot - and there's no reason why you can buy a DS a doll too - it is worth a try - Alternately, I used to sometimes resort to putting DD1 in her nursery with the baby gate closed and go and feed DD2 - trying hard to ignore the screaming and frantic battering against the gate (it would normally stop after about 15 / 30 mins or so)

I also tried to "coach" DD2 to feed while DD1 was having lunch or dinner or while she was in bath distracted and that seemed to help a little. I also used to take advantage of anyone hwo was around to take DD1 away for a play (esp DH when he was home) Expressing also helped - then I could give DD2 to someone while I gave DD! some of that attention she was craving!

I hope that these suggestions are of some use to you - but I can definitely tell you that you are not alone - All of my friends who have 2 and are trying to bf the newborn are stuggling in very much the same way - no matter what age DD/DS2 is!! Keep going - you have done sooooo well to get this far!!

I don't know if this is complete rubbish, but my HV (yes, I know!) told me that she had heard os a study that showed (god knows how) that toddlers are perhaps almost MORE accepting of breast feeding than of bottles. What I mean to say is that you don't know that your ds will be more comfortable with bottle feeding than with breast feeding. he may still be jealous and have tantrums, and perhaps the fact that your dd could be fed by anyone might mean that he will expect other people to feed her and you'll be back to square one. After all, you don't miraculously grow another arm when you bottle feed, and you wouldn't necessarily be able to do whatever it is you can't do now when breast feeding. I don't know whether this makes sense at all, and I know it offers very little practical advice. Like the idea of a doll for your ds as well. Or a teddy? My dd breastfeeds her toys at the moment (out of her tummy button for some reason) but she is that bit older and more independent (was 26 months when ds born).
Tiktok - think that if you're pretending to be Jo Frost it should be "asseptible"

My dd "breastfed" her doll out of her tummy too, pooka - interesting!! Wouldn't it be fab to grow an extra arm or too though!!? [sigh, 'if only' emoticion]

And another thing koalabear - DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, FEEL GUILTY!! Whether you bf or bottle-feed, you are doing what is best for you, your new DD and your DS - especially with your DH going away - things are tough enough without beating yourself up about it - It is nearly impossible to treat DD in the same way as you did DS - she is your 2nd baby and you have both of them to care for now - There is no longer the opportunities for exclusivity like there was with your first so do not feel bad - you are doing a great job, just keep telling yourself that!!

"I don't believe that harmony will return to the house just because you bottle feed." Completely agree - you could end up more drained and embattled simply by having to make time to sterilise (?), make up feeds, warm (?) and still sit down with your newborn to feed. Meanwhile your ds will feel he gets less attention and react accordingly. Agree it is a power struggle which ultimately you need to control, otherwise, even if you decide to bottle feed, it will just reappear over something else.

Could you have a basket of small toys/books/videos which you can get out only when you are feeding so they are fresh and change them every few days. Also is he better when you have other people around to distract him and make the whole thing a bit less stressful. Where do you feed - is it worth putting a stairgate on the door so he can't wander off and become destructive elsewhere.

Sometimes feel that could do with 6 arms and 2 brains at the moment.

No, I insist- I need at least eight arms, six legs and four brains!!

I think LIZS' idea is really good to have a basket/box with things that are desirable to him but which he is only allowed to play with when you are b/feeding. So maybe stickers/glittery paper/play buttons (available from ELC?). Or whatever else he likes.

Also I found when I had dd2 that it helped massively to have a sling. I very very often fed dd2 in the sling, even when I was just sitting on the sofa, because it meant I still had two hands free and could play much much better with dd1. Also dd2 was hardly visible that way and dd1 sort of forgot that she was there at all! I had a slingeasy but there are lots of different ones around

sorry, messed up link there