History repeating itself? Nature vs nurture?

[chaosisawayoflife]

Ok, this will probably end up being quite long, but I'd really appreciate any opinions/views on this, professional or otherwise.

DD1 is 3.5. I had nightmares with her as a baby, with regard to feeding and weight gain. She was ebf until 4 months, and had one ff bottle per day until she was 6 months, when she was weaned and exclusively ff. She was born on the 75th centile, quickly dropped down to the 50th, and then drifted down to the 0.4th by 12 weeks. She dithered around the bottom of the charts until 6 months when she jumped to the 25th, then the 50th at 8 months. She dropped back downwards to the 9th at 11 months which is the last time she was weighed. I have roughly weighed and measured her at home and by my reckoning she is now between 2nd and 9th for weight and on the 2nd for height. Her first year was an absolute nightmare, I was stressed out beyond belief, had her weighed every week (at hv's insistance) had endless trips to gps, bf counsellors, etc etc, none of whom found anything wrong but all agreed she was verging on failure to thrive.
I swore I wouldn't go through that again with DD2, I couldn't face it and I hate the fact that I look back on the 1st year of DD1's life as a constant stream of stress, guilt, fear and trauma.

So, along comes DD2. She was born on the 91st centile(!), did pretty well to start off with, fed beautifully from birth and at 6 weeks weighed what DD1 weighed at 16 weeks! I haven't taken her to hv clinic at all, but I have been getting her weighed when she has her jabs. She has been slowly sliding down the centiles too. At 6 weeks she was between 50th and 75th, at 10 weeks she was between 25th and 50th, and at 14 weeks she was between 9th and 25th. She has got her last jabs next week (18 weeks) and I'll get her weighed again, but I have a feeling she will have dropped a bit again. She is gaining weight, but slowly.

So...part of me is saying 'this is the way I make babies. They are big at birth, I'm obviously good at the pregnancy nurturing bit, but then they drop down to their natural size, which is small.' My mum assures me I was the same, I was born at 8lb something but when I started school I was the smallest in my class, and stayed that way for some time. The blip when DD1 went up to the 50th centile was just after I introduced ff full time and she was probably over-fed.
The other part of me thinks I'm obviously shit at nurturing babies by breastfeeding, and the reason DD1 is so tiny now (far smaller than any of her friends) is because I gave her such a poor start in life and my breastmilk is not enough to grow a healthy sized baby.

I'm really scared about getting DD2 weighed next week. And also where I go from there. Part of me would love to not bother getting her weighed again, apart from at necessary health checks (not sure if there are any anymore), but the other part of me is scared incase she is undernourished and needs to be checked up on.

So, is it possible to give birth to babies who are so much bigger than their natural future size? I've heard of 'catching down', but mine seem to 'catch down' far more than most! Does the first 6 months feeding and growth affect the size they will eventually grow to? I really want to ebf dd2 for a lot longer than I did DD1, I'm really enjoying it this time, she is a lot easier and more relaxing to feed, but if my breastmilk is not enough then I will supplement/switch to formula, to give her the best start in life.

I'm really conflicted on this and trying my utmost not to get into the state I did with DD1. Any advice/views would be really appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

That's a difficult place to be in :(
Maybe look at your baby as a whole - nappies, milestones, happy and alert?rather than just at weight gain? If she is a healthy baby and doing well generally do you need to have her weighed?

I agree with WoT- how does she look? Hydrated? Bright eyes, alert, interested in the world around her? What is your instinct telling you- do you really think she is undernourished? What size are u and baby's dad? I would focus on things like that than actual weight per se, and as for the next weigh-in, my ds was weighed again at 18 weeks so prepare yourself for it as best u can

I agree with the above as long as baby is otherwise well dont worry about it to much. I'm a big fan of letting Mother Nature guide the way as long as there are no other problems. Make sure your breast milk is the best quality, I know its hard to eat properly with just one child let alone two but just make sure to have lots of fruit, veg and water etc then what you DD is getting should be fine.

The graphs in the books are based on formula fed caucasion (sp?) babies so aren't particularly helpful to everyone.

Sorry to contradict you single but what you eat, OP, won't affect your breastmilk "quality" which will be just fine. It's good to try to eat healthily for your own health, but it won't affect your baby.

Also, the graphs aren't based on FF babies :)

OP, I can really see your worry. It's so hard to decide between the risks of stopping BFing and the risks of her not getting enough milk.

I'm not qualified to be able to give you actual guidance on this. I am not sure if Tiktok could give you any info (as our resident BFing counsellor) but there's a few things I would point out.

• It's a really positive thing that no one found anything wrong as it seems to me that it's likely to be "just how she is".

• Your milk quality will be fine. Volume of milk is key. Are you feeding on cue? www.kellymom.com/bf/start/basics/hunger-cues.html. What sort of times between feeds are there?

• How accurate were the birth weights? Meaning, did you have a drip during birth for instance that could mean she'd got extra fluids on board?

• YOU were small. Chances are that your daughter is the same. That feels reassuring to me.

Keep us up to date on how things are going?

Organic I don't want to sart a debate as its probably not relevent to OPs problem but I did have the breastfed growth charts I downloaded from the WHO. I can't find them now but below is a quote of an article about them.WHO

Q: How does today?s growth standard differ from the growth references used before?

A: The new standard establishes breastfeeding as the biological norm and the breastfed infant as the standard for growth and development. Previous reference charts were based largely on the growth of infants fed formula milk. The WHO Child Growth Standards are global and for all children, in contrast to the previous international reference based on children from a single country ? the United States of America (USA).

single what I mean is that the red book charts are the "corrected" (ie not FF) charts. :)

Nothing to add here :) It's correct that the graphs are not based on ff white babies - the charts in use in the UK are based on data from a worldwide collection of weights from breastfed babies. Also, no need to worry about diet and milk quality. Extra fruit veg and water makes no difference.

Weight is only one aspect of a baby's health and well-being - plenty of babies fall down the centile graph without it meaning anything except 'this is how this baby is meant to be'...but if it is thought your baby needs to grow faster, then the easiest way to 'test' this is to offer more breastfeeds, and this would mean feeding in response to cues but actually, more than this, feeding whenever you think she might accept it :)

Some laid-back babies don't cue very obviously, and take enough to tick along and stay reasonably happy, needing conscious, deliberate 'extra offering' in order to ensure they really do get what they need. This would mean, in your case, making sure at least both breasts are offered every time, and feeds are offered whenever she is alert and awake. She may not want any more - not a problem. She will show you by her behaviour she doesn't, and at 18 weeks she and you will be in tune enough with each other for the message to be clear.

Building your confidence and hanging on to it after the difficult experience you had last time - and the continuing niggles you still have - hard for you. A breastfeeding counsellor would listen to you about this and support you.

oh ok never mind then :)

Single - the UK never used the old charts referred to in that quote. The US did. We used a completely different dataset - called UK 1990 - which was replaced by the charts in current use, in 2008 (might have been 2009).

Ok, you learn something new everyday, ignore all my posts OP. I guess thats the problem with the web too much information available thats not always applicable.

Thanks tiktok. I'm glad you came along here as you've clarified some info for me too :)

single :) It could have been an important point though, so well worth making if that makes sense. No reason for you to have known otherwise :)

Thanks everyone. She seems otherwise healthy, alert, generally happy, strong and active. She does suffer with wind but not to a huge degree. She feeds between 2-4 hourly, usually having both breasts. Birth weight wasn't inflated, she was a natural home birth with no drugs, and I was healthy in pregnancy and only put on 1.5 stone. I will try to offer feeds more often, but I do tend to offer even if she is not cueing. I think I'm going to see how her weight is on Tuesday and if she's not dropped drastically then I'll leave as is and avoid weigh ins unless I'm concerned. Any advice on how to find a decent bf counsellor if I do need one? The ones at our drop in clinic weren't great last time.

You could try your local La Leche or NCT group to see if they have a BFC in your area. ABM (Association of Breastfeeding Mothers) also have BFCs but fewer of them. You could also try Googling "IBCLC" in your area. If you want to say where you are (roughly) I can tell you if I happen to know anyone nearby.

:) :) :) @ drug-free homebirth :)

Sounds like you've got a decent plan there. Let us know how you get on.

Re finding support:

Phone one of the helplines:

National Breastfeeding Helpline 0300 100 0212

BfN Supporterline 0300 100 0210

LLL groups
helplines HTH :)

OP just wanted to say that my dd1 did the same as your dd. And dd2 born 10 days early weighed more! I'm fully expecting her to follow the same pattern as dd1. DH and I are not big. I just make big babies. And don't think that your breast milk isn't good enough, dd hasn't moved up the charts much and she's now 3 and eats loads! I'm looking at baby not scales this time as it stressed me too much last time.

Thanks again everyone. I had her weighed at her jabs today and she's gone up slightly, now sitting firmly on the 25th. I'm so happy and now I can carry on enjoying her and that little niggle of worry has gone!

Fantastic!! :)

Brilliant. vYou know what the answer is? Just never ever get her weighed again .
Sounds like you're doing a brilliant job there.

Just wanted to do a little update and share my happiness with people who may understand what an achievement this is for me! Dd is now 6 months and I had her weighed last week and she is now on the 50th centile for weight and height. I am so happy, I really feel like I'm starting to bury the demons from my experiences in dd1s first 6 months. I really feel the most fantastic sense of achievement and now I've got to 6 months ebf there's no stopping me (much to my mil's horror, she thinks dd2 should be 'off the titty by now').

Well done!