BF - what to do with their damn arms?

[r3dh3d]

Having a positioning problem that I can't find any answer to online. DD instinctively brings her hands up to her face when hungry - presumably to grab hold once she gets more co-ordinated. But meantime it means she holds two stiff, flailing arms in front of her face, and the more hungry she is the more wildly she flails. It's very difficult to get a latch in these circumstances because she keeps pushing the breast away or knocking it aside. Which of course makes her more frustrated so she flails more...

Where are the arms supposed to go? I'm kind of assuming that in a standard hold, the lower arm should tuck alongside the body, underneath the baby. Or maybe under the boob. But if I try to catch hold of the arm and move it down there, she gets distressed, so maybe it's uncomfortable.

Where do other babies put their arms and any suggestions how to get round this one?

Hi When you first pick her up tuck one arm straight under your arm, sort of behind your back (if you get me). The other hand can be restrained by letting her grab your finger and gently stroking her hand. This is a soothing motion and hopefully it will work. It worked for me anyway.
Good Luck!!!!

agree you gotta hold the arms out of the way when they're tiny

I used to secure DS's arms by his sides using a muslin - he flailed a lot when small
You wrap it round their back, round the outside of each arm and then tuck the end between the inside of their arm and the trunk - not sure that makes any sense...

Hi, Yeah I used to wrap DD2 when I was feeding her, especially in the middle of the night it made life so much easier as she was also a flailer. The method I mentioned earlier worked for my 1st daughter who was a much calmer child.

Same as blondeinlondon - a bf counsellor showed me how to do it when had latch problems. It worked.

In the evening and morning I tend to feed my DD lying down so she's leaning on one arm, so it only leaves her one arm to flail around. Sometimes she'll settle it on my boob (she's 12 weeks) or on her face /top of her head but if not and she's really faffing, I'll hold it down.
When I feed her sitting up, one arm goes under her belly, and I'll hold the other day. Feels horrible to do so but she's grabbing everything at the moment!

Swaddling works well.

r3 - how is bf going on generally? You've abandoned the other thread you began

Oh, I'm sorry tik - I'm a kipper. I struggle a bit with the Mumsnet page layout - stuff moves down so quickly I can never find a thread if I come back to it more than a couple of hours later

Well, how's it going....?

Re: the arms thing - I have tried wrapping her arms up in a muslin as suggested. She gets quite angry about it but it works for a bit - as long as I latch her before she fights free again. (Like her sister, she seems to have been born with unnatural strength ) So thanks all for those suggestions.

Everything else - hmmm.

I've had her back on the boob one feed/day for a few days now and that's been OK in that my boobs coped with it. But she didn't seem to be getting much out - of course I can only judge by the amount of swallowing and how hungry she still was when she came off, but (for instance) if she'd take a 100 ml bottle normally, she'd still take a 100 ml bottle after 15 mins on the boob. I normally get about 40mls out by expressing both sides, and she should get more out than expressing, right? So how does that work?

Went to the bf counsellors up at the hospital: the lady I spoke to there had a bunch of suggestions which seem sensible but actually haven't helped a lot. One thing was to reduce the amount of formula I give her. So I've cut down from 100mls to 60mls which of course has made her hungry more often. But her main idea was that if I just stopped the bottles for 48 hours then if I could put up with 48 hours of crying baby, after that I should have an abundant supply and a perfectly transitioned baby. I was a bit suspicious but have decided to try it at least partially. So have bf'ed every feed now from about 5am last night. I've given her reduced amounts of formula after each bf (30-60 mls), because I really don't think my boobs can cope with a baby constantly hanging off them.

As a result, things have got a lot worse. Firstly, her latch is deteriorating. It's much harder now to get her to open her mouth properly: you can wave your boob in her face all you like but she won't open more than enough to get an average sized thumb in. Secondly, when you can get a decent latch on to start with, she works her way off by slowly closing her mouth during the feed. So after about two minutes, she is just sucking at the nipple and has to be re-latched. By then she is pretty pissed off and latching gets progressively harder from then on. After about 5 mins on the boob she starts whinging - not crying exactly but squeaking in distress and shaking her head. Of course, she wasn't doing any of this at the bf clinic so I haven't managed to show it to anyone yet. But putting her on the boob more frequently has definitely made her latch worse [puzzled smiley]

My boobs are not in a good state - this is after about 12 hours of feeding every 2 hours or so. My nipples are very sore, not just when touched but all of the time. I have breast shells on so nothing is touching them at the moment and I'm still typing with my toes curled up, ouch ouch ouch they hurt - expect to lose another layer of skin - and I have bruising all around the areola where (I guess) she is chewing rather than licking to get letdown. So, I don't think it makes sense to carry on bf tonight as things are going downhill so quickly

I am, to be honest, really unhappy and angry with the whole bf thing. Everyone keeps telling me that it's perfectly achievable if only I'm dedicated enough - but I really can't see that at the moment. It just looks to me as if the way she is feeding is doing me too much damage to be sustainable, and though I can see how constant bf-ing will help my supply I can't see how it's going to fix the mechanics of her feeding, and if we can't do that I can't keep it up.

Sorry about the rant, all. Not a happy mummy atm.

Hi r3dh3d

Haven't read your other thread but I'm sorry to hear you're having a bad time at the moment. I've been there - well done for getting this far!

I had an independent midwife/breastfeeding expert come to the house when I was having problems. She used to swaddle my dd with a muslin - quite firmly I thought. As you say, it works as long as they don't manage to get their arms free again before latching.

If you are in a lot of pain might it be worth expressing for a bit to give your nipples a chance to heal? Also (if you're desparate - I know not everyone advises them) you could try nipple shields?

Re your struggles with the page layout, have you tried clicking on the "threads I'm on" link at the top of the page?

Oh you poor, poor thing. I know my nephew was like this - he just wouldn't open his mouth wide enough. And Inferiorette#2 used to lie there wailing with hunger but refuse to notice the absolutely enormous breast being waved in front of her. Have you tried (I'm sure you have and it might not make a difference but what the hell) expressing a few drops out onto her face so she might get the message?

Huge commiserations.

Poor you! How old is she? Some babies do seem to take a while to work out what they are supposed to do. How about going back to the hospital and explaining what she's up to now. I really sympathise. I can hurt like hell if the latch goes wrong. It may also be worth checking you don't have an infection or anything contributing to the soreness. I had antibiotics and they helped, I think.
I held my babies head, quite firmly. So if she was feeding from my left breast, I'd hold her near me with her head in my right hand so I could control her, and my left arms sort of underneath her, and I'd swaddle her - tightly! - before I started the feed. Remember, her arm movements are not under her control atm, so she's not actually fighting the swaddle - she doesn't have enough purposeful movement for that, it just feels like it.
But all this fannying about is just at the beginning. My dd now latches herself on in the most extraordinary positions! Quite athletic!

Um, left ARM, i'm not an octopus!

r3 - you need proper one to one help.

Sometimes, positioning and attachment don't just sort themselves out with one visit to a clinic /counsellor.

It is not easy to bf when it's painful and frequent and unsatisfying.

Try lots of skin to skin contact so you can practise the latching when she is not frantic for a feed, and you can take her off and try again if she doesn't get it right without winding her up.

But another visitor to the clinic, or getting someone in to see you, will be the main way of getting help, I think.

I hope things get better.

Yes, fed the same way as Aloha after shown by bf counsellor. Also, be very firm, no breast to mouth but clamp mouth to breast as soon as the baby opens it. Was quite shocked at how abrupt the bfc was but the relief was huge, worked instantaneously. Had had mastitis in both breasts at same time so really needed help. Good luck but would recommend a bfc again.

Thanks all. All your kind thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated.

The problem is that the worse it gets, the less I feel inclined to contact a bf counsellor: it seems less and less likely now that this is going to work out and when I do pack it in, I'll hate myself; I remember being terribly low last time, I cried for days. The last thing I need is some self-satisfied cow who thinks she's been through much worse and thinks she has all the answers judging me on top of all that - I think it would push me over the edge.

I'll have a think about it over the course of the day.

Message withdrawn

r3 - please don't hate yourself if you do end up packing it in, and don't worry what others will think either - only you know what you have been going through. I do think it's worth contacting a BFC before making the decision though - preferably one that can come to your home. A good one should be sensitive to your feelings and not be overbearing. Good luck.

Hi all;

Thought I'd give you a quick update. Soldiering on here though no real sign of improvement. Back to bf counsellor today.

A couple of weird things - maybe someone can shed some light on them as official channels (bf counsellor and HV) seem to think I'm just making it up:

• RageMonkey seems to prefer formula to ebm, if you judge by how much she will drink. I would have thought (as ebm is sweeter) it would be the other way round. Am not eating anything "funny" or, for that matter, different to what I ate when pg so cannot account for it.
• Cannot make maths of bf/expressing/bottles add up. Expressing can now get about 70mls off. If I give RM a bottle, she'll have about 120mls. If I give her the boob then a bottle, she'll have 100mls from the bottle. But I can't express more than another 5mls off the boob after she has fed. Where is it all going???

Both the bfc and the HV should have told you the answers to those Qs, r3.

Preference for taste is by no means the only factor in baby's feeding. The bottle teat gives a super stimulus to the sucking reflex - a baby very often takes more from a bottle simply because it is there.

I don't think EBM is sweeter - is it? Might be! Would have to look it up.

You cannot look only at volume of milk taken. Breastmilk, expressed or otherwise, is not the same calorifically all the way through. Milk from a less full breast is denser ie there are more calories to its volume. This is because it is creamier.

So 70 mls of EBM might have the same calories as 100 mls of formula. It might also have less. No one can know unless they do an analysis.

Either way, expressing does not reflect how much milk your baby can take or wants to take. Expressing can be less efficient than a baby or sometimes more efficient than a baby.

Feeding is not a question of maths alone. It includes baby's abilities, mother's let down, mother's storage capacities, baby's behaviour....a whole load of things which are impossible to put down as sums!

If your feeding is going better (ie not painful, baby happy to come to breast often, feeds well, is thriving) then it should be just fine to breastfeed directly. Expressing can make you think the amount you express is some sort of benchmark, and it isn't.

Thanks Tik;

Alas, no, the feeding isn't going better - the reason I'm going back to the bfc is it's still pretty uncomfortable. And my gut feel (from the amount of "swallows" I see) is that DD isn't getting much out on the breast. I'm guessing these two things are related: the discomfort is a fairly overwhelming sensation, but I don't think I'm getting letdown when she's on the breast, which may itself be caused by the pain?

But it's totally erratic. She'll have one relatively good feed (ie latch not too painful for the first few minutes, will stay on more than a couple of mins) and then five bad ones where I can't latch her on properly or she won't stay on or she clamps her jaws shut on the nipple. I can't work out what the difference is between the good feeds and the bad ones! Annoyingly, the HV had a look at our latch and RM must have realised she was being observed because she latched on like an angel and fed dilligently for five whole minutes - till the door shut on the HV's way out whereupon she fell off the boob and wouldn't go back on either side; just lay there screaming, as she does.

Here's hoping we have a more productive session this afternoon.

Hi r3, I was wondering how things were going. That's typical, isn't it - the perfect feed when someone is watching... I also sympathise re not knowing what the difference is between the good and the bad feeds.

Try not to worry too much about how much your baby is taking, but (assuming this is still your aim) just concentrate on trying to get her to breastfeed, so that it doesn't hurt you and she seems satisfied. When a baby is exclusively breastfed, you have no way of knowing how much they are taking - you just have to put your trust in it.

Note: I'm no expert - listen to tiktok! I have been in your position and wish I could give you a miracle cure.