Baby won't feed

[millsy]

a few weeks my HV recommended me to commence Jake on some formula feeds, as he was constantly feeding for short intervals at my breast but not gaining weight. My HV was convinced he was not getting any hind milk and therefore not gaining weight.
Well, he is now on formula all the time as I am no longer making milk, despite using my pump to express twice a day. Now there is absolutley no milk, (it took 1/2 hour to get 1/2 ounce on Thursday from both breasts).
Yet, he is still not taking enough on bottles. He should be having 25 floz per day. Jake is only taking 21floz and that is with constant persevering. He sleeps all night and was missing a feed so I have been feeding him 3 hourly during the day, yet he is still only taking the same amount. I have tried waking him at night but he is too sleepy to feed, even though he sleeps for 6-9hrs.
When the HV came to weigh him yesterday he had only gained 3 oz in one week which she is unhappy about. This is making me really worried. Every feed time is a battle with him, he will take a couple of ounces OK but will then mess around with the rest, pushing the teat out with his tongue and clamping his mouth shut. He does get wind and it can be quite difficult to shift but we usually manage to get rid of it, yet he is till reluctant to feed after that. He does all this, yet he screams to be fed beforehand, so I don't understand why he won't take a full feed. The HV said he didn't have a brilliant 'suck' and to try him on a faster teat (avent no.2) but he is still messing around with feeding.
I would be really grateful if anyone has had a similar experience and would be able to provide some advice. I am at my wits end with worry.

Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading this far.

Sorry, forgot to mention Jake is 4 wks old today and has gained 11.5 ounces on his birth weight.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, do you want to go back to breastfeeding or stick to the bottles. To be honest it sounds like your HV has given you horrendous advice.

My DD2 (who is also 4 weeks old today so do we both have 4th October babies?) has only put on weight (over her birth weight) in the past week, before then she lost and then put on her weight until she got to her birth weight. This is perfectly normal, babies will lose the weight when they are born and then put it back on, a couple of weeks to regain birth weight is fine, before they put on anything over that.

When DD2 was 2 weeks old (2 weeks ago) the HV also said that my daugher would 'have' to have top ups with formula. That wasn't going to happen, too many allergies etc, but the bottom line was that she is pooing, weeing and content. The growth charts HVs use are based on formula feed babies, not breastfeed, breastfed babies do gain slower.

How long since Jake had a feed at your breast, it maybe that he simply does not like the bottles. If you want to try the breastfeeding again, put him to your breast. There is always milk (you maybe having a hard time expressing because you are worried, not because there is no milk). It takes about 24 hours before the sucking will bring back the right amount of milk.

If you don't want to go back to the breast then maybe try a different teat.

What ever you decide to do, please don't listen to your HV. She is making you worried when it really sounds like Jake is ok. Babies gain at different rates and he is gaining!!!

The other thing to bear in mind if Jake isn't waking when you want to feed him is his skin and eye colour. Is he at all jaundiced. It can take 6 weeks to go in some babies. DD2 is stiil a little yellow in the eyes.

Hopefully someone with more experience will see this and offer some more coherent advice.

Good luck which ever way you decide to feed your little one...but please take what your HV says with a huge pinch of salt.

Meant to add the Anastacia has gained 7 ounces since her birth weight and she really is fine.

Try not focus on the numbers (the weight, the ounces of formula etc) and more at how many poos and wet nappies you have, if he seems dehydrated. There are more indicators of health than the dread HV scales.

Millsy - 11.5 oz in 4 weeks is fine.... I really don't understand why your HV is putting this sort of pressure!

You do not say if you would like to breastfeed or if you are happier bottle feeding. Expressing is NOT the same as BF and it is well known that a baby gets more milk out of you than a pump for a start... also expressing twice a day will not be enough to maintain a milk supply for a newborn.

As Pie suggests if you want to BF than get in bed with your babe for a day 9or at least 1/2 day) preferably both of you naked (well he gets top wear a nappy ) and you do loads of skin to skin, offer the breast regularely - even if he feeds for 2 minutes. BF is supply and demand.... if you don't have enough demand (so not offering breast often/expressing often) the supply diminishes..... and if you want the supply to increase than you need to stimulate your breasts more often and that would be MORE than once every 3 hours - certainly in a "campaign" to lactate sufficiently.

Has your baby always been this sleepy ? What sort of birth did he have ? And was he premature at all ?

I work with newborns all the time and the current baby I am working with has gained 7 oz since birth and he will be 4 weeks tomorrow. No one - MW/HV or GP (who ahve all seen him) have suggested formula.... does goes to show !

Do let us know how you get on but have faith in Jake,.... he won't starve himself. Also formula is much hard to digest so they do take less feeds per day than breastfed babies.

As the mum of 2 boys who were not great feeders - don't stress, the amounts on the packets are just guides - my boys have rarely managed to equal them. At the moment my 5 month old is on 30fl oz a day - apparently he should be taking over 40floz a day, yet he has gained weight and is fitting into 6-12 month babygros.

All babies are different.

I think your HV is mad. She's ruined your breastfeeding and is making you unhappy. Personally I'd ignore every single word she says. He sounds like he's doing fantastically. All babies initially lose weight. It's normal and natural. If you want to breastfeed again (which is really good for babies) then ditch the stupid formula feeds, breastfeed him regularly to build your supply (stop expressing) and ignore her. She sounds like a horrible person, actually.

Millsy, you've had the worst possible luck with your HV - she should never have put you under such ridiculous pressure. With my ds, at 2 weeks I was pressurised by the midwife to supplement him with formula. With my dd, however, I had (still have) the HV from heaven, who supported me fully in my desire to breastfeed. At 4 weeks, dd had only just regained her birthweight + 2 1/2oz and fed approx 3-hourly. And yet, when I compare their charts, overall they gained at almost exactly the same rate once they had passed their birthweights.

These charts are diabolical! Babies gain, grow, and develop at their own rates. Far more important than the centiles is the baby's behaviour, particularly, at this age, the nappies: are there plenty of wet nappies and pooey nappies (a fully breastfed baby may only poo every few days, but does plenty and it's always very liquid)?

It should still be possible for you to reinstate breastfeeding - if you want to. Get in touch with the NCT, they have excellent breastfeeding counsellors who will talk to you as often and for as long as you want, to help you find a way of feeding that works for you and your ds. At this time your boobs would still need stimulation at night, so you'ld have to wake Jake, but he'd probably be hungrier at first and more willing to feed at night (mind you, a sleeping baby at night is lovely!) Basically reinstating breastfeeding would mean giving up most if not all of the bottles, and stimulation, stimulation, stimulation! Also you would have to rest and drink plenty. You can give your milk production a little help by taking fenugreek capsules. You can get them at good health food shops, they're just ground up fenugreek seeds, and you take a lot, much more than the recommended dose (there have been several threads on this, so search under fenugreek and also under domperidone). I used fenugreek very successfully.

On the other hand, he sounds like he's taking all he needs from the bottle at the moment. Trying different bottles/teats/formulas can help to make feeding more pleasant. If he's a windy boy make sure you feed him in a fairly upright position, and give him opportunities to burp during the feed as well as afterwards. A good way to shift a stubborn bubble is to lay the baby down for a couple of seconds and then raising them up to burp. Ds always burped after being layed down or tilted on to his side, whereas dd would burp after being layed on her back.

A long blather - I apologise - but I've been in a similar situation and I recognise your distress. I'm no expert, so before you do anything, please talk to the experts (the NCT for starters).

And do let us know how you get on, whatever you choose to do.

Millsy, how awful that you have been pressurised about feeding so much. I know zilch about breastfeeding but do know how it is when feeding is a nightmare.
DD and me didn't click with bfing and I am sorry to say I just gave up as I panicked she would be underfed. Now (18 mths on) I wish I had perservered and got advice from the NCT, or La Leche League and NOT listened to HV. So, please phone a bf counsellor for help with this - I think they are able to even come round to your house to help in some places (or try the hospital bf counsellor). Hope things improve, Dinny

Millsy -here are all the BF helplines. I am with one of them and we work on Sundays too

Association of Breastfeeding Mothers
24h helpline - 020 7813 1481

Breastfeeding Network
0870 900 8787

La Leche League
24h helpline - 0845 120 2918 NEW number

National Childbirth Trust (NCT)
7 days a week 8AM to 10PM
helpline - 0870 444 8708

Millsy, I don't have anything to add except lots of sympathy. My dd2 is 19 weeks and the HV recently put the wind up me about her weight too. It's vile. I am so sorry. Hugs.

My ds took EIGHT weeks to regain his birthweight - but he was a very heavy baby to start with (8lb 15oz) and dh and I are both small.

Fortunately I had excellent support from the b/f counsellor midwives at the maternity hospital (who ran b/f support group I went to), and avoided all HVs.

The advice you have been given here is excellent. The only thing I would add is if your baby is contented, alert and happy, with plenty of wet and dirty nappies, then relax and and make sure to enjoy this time with him - however you decide to feed him. He is only this small once!

Thanks all of you for your excellent advice. I have been in touch with a b/f counceller, who suggests that I may be able to rescue my milk if I put Jake to the breast before every formula feed and use my pump. This needs to be done approx every 2 hrs which I fear may be difficult to sustain. I will try my best as I really want to brestfeed (again)!
Jake is still only taking between 19 and 23 floz of feed per day, as opposed to the 25floz he should be taking. But, I'm sure Jake will take as much feed as he wants, so I am now going to relax more and ignore the HV when she suggests my son isn't developing like a text book chid!
Since I have been more relaxed, Jake also appears to be more relaxed and now I feel I can start to enjoy him, rather than constantly worrying about his supposed lack of development. Each and every child develops at his or her own rate and I feel very stupid for having got so worked up about what the HV said. I am also quite annoyed with the advice she has given me and would turn the clock back if I could. As a result, I have lost all faith in her and will follow my own instincts with Jake. Someone on another website recommended cranial osteopathy. I may look into this. Anyway, thanks again to all of you - super advice!

Millsy x

Millsy, good luck....it is never easy relactating, which is what you are doing, and you need all the support and TLC you can get. The info you have been given is correct - frequent expressing and as many visits to the breast as possible. Have you considered writing to the HV and/or her manager to say how unhappy you were with what she told you, and how she was unable to help you continue to bf?