is it time to switch to formula?

[Firsttimer1007]

My baby is 17 weeks old and has been exclusively breastfed since birth (apart from first 5days after birth, baby arrived 5wks early and had to be fed formula topped up with ebm). He is growing well and thriving but I'm not sure if he is getting enough milk as he doesn't always even go 3 hours between feeds. On somedays he will stretch longer between feeds and feeds much better as he is hungrier and ready for his feed. We have no routine and every day is completely different, generally I'm ok with this in the day as it's roughly feeding every 3 hours and a sleep about 1 and half to 2 hrs after waking. But by the evening he feeds around 4.30-5.30 and then it's anyone's guess. We had a few nights of him going down at 730ish then dream feed at 10ish then sleeping to 5/6 in morning. Up until last wk we had been waking him up at 10 and giving a bottle of ebm (taking anywhere brpetween 4 and 7 oz)but he was tired and difficult to wake and wasn't settling well til nearer midnight leaving us exhausted. The night after his vaccinations we didn't bother waking him at 10 and he slepl til 6 which was great, and so we have stopped getting him fully awake for feed at 10. This worked ok for a few nights. Now we're back to the situation we were at months ago where he is up and feeding around 5 and then whingy/windy/unsettled/ feeding on and off and overtired before finally going down exhausted about 10 or 11.Our plan of action for the evening "routine" changes every few days and no plan reliably works. I am thinking of changing to formula as I can't be confident that the reason he doesn't settle is that he has to feed to much just to get enough, and the more I think about it the more paranoid I get that he's not getting enough. I'm also worried I'm still breastfeeding because I'd feel guilty for stopping rather than because I think it's actually best for him, since hes just not content in the evenings. Do you think this sounds like a low supply problem, and we should try formula?also worried that once I do move to ff that will be the end of bf, but as I said want what's best for baby. Have tried gina routines, but as I'm breastfeeding can never be sure he's not fussing because he's hungry. Last night I made up a bottle of half aptamil half ebm at 930, but first tried him at the breast just before igave it to him and he feel asleep at the breast. God just realised how long this post is, sorry, but would appreciate any advice!

Some paragraphs might have helped , I'll try and read it and reply.

right - sounds like frequency of feeds is one of your worries. It is not a good indicator of supply. Is he happy and alert usually? Skin showing good hydration? Weight gain okay?
Also have you heard of the 4 month sleep regression? This could be affecting his sleep patterns now.
If you have a BF support group near you (LLL, NCT etc) it moght be worth going along for reassurance and support.

My short answer, No (unless of course, YOU want to, and doing anything out of guilt isn't a preferable space to be in).

The 17 week mark was a rough one for us too, and I had exactly the same concerns. There is a lot going on developmentally for baby at this time leading up to the 19 week Wonder Week. It's a well researched and fact that babies get more clingy, whingy and cry more in the lead up to a Wonder Week - www.thewonderweeks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=97&Itemid=208#19

We had some of our worst time between 17-20 weeks where my DS even started refusing to feed in the day because there was soooo much to look at and would be cluster feeding ALL NIGHT. He was waking between every 45 minutes to a 1.5 hours - nearly killed me!

But passing that Wonder Week, plus the introduction of solids at about 20 weeks and we are sleeping like a dream from about 20 weeks onwards.

I would suggest keep offering the breast if that is what you would like to do to ensure supply keeps up and baby is well fed. His fussiness needn't be hunger related - it's an overwhelming world out there to make sense of for the little ones and they go through wobbly wibbly patches!

Whatever you decide - best of luck!

Ah yes... the 4 month sleep regression!

Altogether a mad blurry period! Highly support the suggestion of popping along to a BF group - an amazing local support and resource!

He is doing really well in all respects, weight gain, alertness etc. Justs looked up about the sleep regression and not sure if it's that as we haven't really ever had him sleeping that well or reliably for him to regress from, if we get a good night it seems to be down to luck rather than anything special we've done during the day!
Have been thinking that switching to formula will make it easier to establish a routine, it this anyones experience?have been told I'll wake up someday and "just know" it's right for us to stop, but even though I don't feel I nessecarily want to stop I am feeling that it might be the only way for dh and I to get our lives back. Our evening since ds apcame along have either been spent walking baby round the house, or me hooked up to pump while dh gives bottle of ebm, not quite what we envisaged!

Just googled wonderweek hadnt heard of this before, and he had all the symptoms of being in the mist of wonder week 19!!!

TBH your evenings/nights don't sound unusual. Are you a morning person or a nightowl?Maybe your baby just wants to be close to you still in the evenings? My DC have all had different patterns. The modern idea of a 'good' night is based on the bottlefeeding 4hourly thing which isn't actually normal for human babies.
Another thing to be wary of is the idea that FF babies sleep through sooner than BF babies. Apparently this isn't true and it really depends on individual baby.

If you want to stop, stop. But it's a lot harder to go back to BF if it doesn't work out.
Remember it's just a phase which will pass.

Just idly read this thread as it was in Active.

It all sounds pretty par for the course at 17 weeks. (I would have been delighted if DD had managed a midnight-5am stretch at that age - she was nowhere near).

Does your dream feed have to be ebm? Surely if you fed him directly, you could enjoy your evening without having to pump. Or just give formula for the dream feed and continue bf the rest of the time. Your supply should adjust to whatever pattern you fall into with your ds by that age.

I was going to query the whole ebm feed thing too Silken.

And GF routines don't really tend to work with demand fed babies.

We only started dream feed last week and I haven't been expressing in the evening which has been great. Had been giving a bottle so I could see how much he was getting before bed so that if he woke earlier in the night I'd know if it was hunger or something else but regardless I always end up feeding him back to sleep anyway!

Also haven't been getting to dream feed last while as he's been up from 5 in evening right thru to 10 or 11

Honestly firsttimer this sounds totally normal to me. Some of my friends' bf babies went three hours between feeds. But DD very very rarely went that long. She was prem too so I always wondered if she had a smaller stomach, but the 2-2.5 hourly feeding continued way beyond the time when she was teeny.

She also had lots of unsettled evenings. She had a sixth sense for when dinner was on the table (or on my lap!!) and wanted cuddled and/or fed while my dinner got cold. At about your DSs age I tried to start some form of bedtime routine and we were upstairs in the dark from about 8.30-9 ish inwards. Some nights she fed on and off, switching sides, till midnight. DH called it feeding her into submission. Then if we were lucky she would sleep till 5 ish.

There was nothing wrong with my supply. DD just wanted lots of snuggly cuddly feeds. Probably partly for nutrition but just also for comfort and company and reassurance.

If you want to give formula then of course this is your decision, but if your DS is gaining weight, alert etc. then I really don't think there's anything wrong with your supply.

It won't be like this forever. My DD is 18 months old now and believe it or not I miss my little cuddly baby now I have a strong willed tantrumming toddler to deal with.

Oh and also just anecdotally from posts I've seen on here there are people who switch to formula thinking it will improve sleep or make their baby more settled and are then gutted when they end up with a baby who still wakes just as much, but they have to faff with making bottles etc in the middle of the night.

On the dreamfeed, once DD was settling earlier in the evening, I did try a dreamfeed and it didn't work for us. It just kind of 'reset' her so instead of having a long sleep at the start of the night, after her dreamfeed she went into daytime routine of wanting to feed every two hours. I do think it works for some, but certainly not us.

Thanks ladies, feel much better knowing this is all normal and others have had similar experiences, you just can't help feeling like you must be doing something wrong when baby doesn't do what he is "supposed" to!

okay - I've been trying to avoid the 'I did' stuff but here goes.
Woth DS1 he didn't sleep. I'd been told 'babies need routines' etc but as soon as I put him down he'd start bawling. Life got a lot easier for me when I stopped trying, had him downstairs (usually asleep in my arms or DH's arms) and took him up to bed with us.. We later on had a bedtime (DS2 had arrived and if DS1 woke at 4.30-5 every morning whether he'd been to bed early or late and he was less grouchy if earlier to bed) but often ended up lying on his bed with him for an hour or more. He's now nearly 6 goes to bed on his own and is no problem not waking til 7 or so.
DS2 and DD are more like me and nightowls, not a problem, they potter downstairs til tired then have a story and sleep.

Now hat is what worked for me it won't necessarily for you but I guess I'm trying to say - It doesn't last long. You will get some time to yourselves back. Routines don't work for everyone.

It sounds quite normal to me.
dd1 didn't get a proper 'schedule' until abt 5months... you can try to manipulate the feeds a little more by forcing cluster feeding from 5pm until bedtime. This can sometimes help to get a longer sleep in the evening.

If you like routine: You might consider making a sleep journal and see if the baby is on say a 30 hour routine rather than 24 hour... try to make the day time more obvious as well as the night time. Create a routine for yourself and follow it and the baby will start falling into place. For instance get up and open curtains (even if baby is not up yet) start music, or bring the baby downstairs to sleep so they start really getting to know it's day. Then when you want it to be night time close the curtains, lower lights and noise levels, bring the baby back upstairs to bed.

There's no reason to go to ff unless you really want to...the more the baby is on the breast the more milk you'll produce, so that really shouldn't be a problem.

Ha! Just wrote that post and then see you've already posted. Babies don't get given the rulebook

Sounds normal . I used try and imagine I was a mummy monkey (we are mammals after all). What would she do - just snugge and feed. Don't why but it made me feel better in the long sleepless nights. I just kept both my babies up with us untill they were 8/9 months, they went to bed when we went to bed and cluster fed all evening.
Cluster feeding is excellent excuse to watch television all evening IMO!

It all sounds completely and utterly normal to me ? in fact way better than my DS was doing at the same age or even later

Firsttimer - but what are baby's "supposed" to do. They are designed to feed - sleep - dirty nappies and demand comfort and with any luck gorw like no tomorrow. They haven't read any of the book's and can't read the time either.

Throw the clock out the window, recyle the baby book's (pervably into the recylce bin and not to another mum) and relax and enjoy your baby.

Your doing great, sounds like he's doing just what he is supposed to.

NO NO NO dont give in your doing a great job. Remember the first few weeks, it always gets better. Its just a stage keep going:)

If you want to stop stop, but if you don't don't. If you do stop, don't think of it as failing or as giving in - it's not.

However, I can wholeheartedly assure you that giving your baby bottles of formula will not make it easier to establish a routine. Anecdotally people say it is, but as mother of 4 dcs who bf for 10wks, 6m, 5wks and 7wks I can promise you it's not.

DS2 is now 16wks, and is far from sleeping through, far from predictable in the day and far from reliable in his day to day consumption - he will have anywhere between 24 & 36oz daily.

You have done amazingly well to get this far. Think carefully before you stop. This thread should hopefully show you that ff is not necessarily the answer so, in a way will help to remove that from the equation. If you want to stop bf then do so, but don't stop because you are thinking that ff is easier to manage. It's hard work too!

Hope you make the right decision for you and your DS.