Upper lip Tie?

[CardyMow]

I've just read on an AIBU thread that there is a thing called upper lip tie.

Now I have had problems bf DS3 from the start - he had a fairly severe posterior TT that was snipped at 10wo. He is now 8mo, and still feeding every 2 hrs day and night .

His top two teeth have just come through, and there is a massive gap between them. Also DS3 will NOT take a bottle. Any bottle. I have tried Tommee Tippee, NUK, MAM, Avent. I have also tried some beakers - an old fashioned one that pours out of 3 holes when you tip it, a Nuby one with a silicone teat thingy, a Tommee Tippee white & blue non-spill one, a Tommee Tippee one with a silicone teat, an anyway up cup, and even in desperation a 360 cup.

He can't or wont drink from any of them.

Now after reading that there is a thing called upper lip tie, I went and googled some images. The bit on DS3's lip that attaches his lip to his gum looks like it goes right from the front of his top lip right to the bottom of his gum, and it's quite thick. It looks very similar to <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=Upper+lip+tie&hl=en&sa=X&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-Address&rlz=1I7ACEW_enGB437GB437&biw=1366&bih=540&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsfd&tbnid=pFVkrZFDvMbsfM:&imgrefurl=daisieyandbuggy.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/2-dreaded-words-lip-tie/&docid=2KIk7EsfIquU-M&itg=1&w=3504&h=2336&ei=DzeOToH0Jamw0QWz1M0t&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=728&vpy=177&dur=273&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=172&ty=126&page=3&tbnh=140&tbnw=192&start=24&ndsp=13&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:24" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">This one off Google images . Though DS3's seems a bit thicker, and seems to start slightly further forward on his lip, and goes right to the bottom of his gum.

Could this be why I am a) Still having to bf DS3 every 2 hrs (or more) day and night at 8mo, and b) Why DS3 can't or won't drink from a bottle or beaker, and c) Will it affect his speech? and d) does it need snipped like his TT did?

My boy has this too, I think it makes it difficult to get the fish lips right when latching but would be interested to know if it can affect efficiency of feeding as well. His Dad and Grandma both have gappy teeth (I think it looks cute) but no problems with speech etc. so Im hoping he will be the same.

Hope someone on here can tell us!

I had this. My mum had terrible problems with sore/bleeding nipples BF me adn her milk 'dried up' at 12 weeks (Isuspect though that this was an assumption based on me not goin 4 hours between feeds). No speech problems but it was cut when I was about 5. Not entirely sure why. Had an enormous gap between my teeth that I have fond memories of being about to get my tongue up into sideways

Not sure thta it would affect drinking from a cup/beaker and IME 2hourly nursings at 8mo aren't abnormal.

My son had this but we never really noticed until his teeth came through. It did explain why he never fed very well. He had his snipped when he was about 18 months I think as they were never sure if it would affect his speech.

When I say 2 hourly bf - it's NEVER more than 2 hrs apart - sometimes it's only 15 minutes, sometimes 30 minutes - but NEVER more than 2 hrs. Day and night. As a lone parent with 3 older dc, 2 of whom have SN.

When he tries to drink from a bottle, his top lip curls under, which seems to 'squash' the teats in, until they leak from the side or fall into the bottle. He has a gap between his top teeth that you could put a 50p in. He's never got the 'fish lips' thing.

Also, he has always used his top gums to sort of 'massage' the milk out - but now that he has top teeth, his suckling like this is leaving teeth marks in me, and also he clamps down when he is feeding, which means he is actually drawing blood. If I can't get him to drink from a bottle or beaker, what do I do? I really don't have the time to cup-feed him, due to my comittments with my SN dc - I KNOW how much time that takes up as I had to do it with DS2.

My DD had a severe posterior tongue tie and has an upper lip tie. The midwife who snipped her tt said the lip tie wouldn't affect feeding, but we've never managed to EBF :(. DD also had trouble with bottles at first. The only one that seems to work for her is the Breastflow bottles. Maybe try one of those?

I would still say the amount of nursings isn't abnormal but it is tiring even with a partner around to pick up the slack with the other DC.
It does sound as if it's restricting the movement of his upper lip and affecting how he nurses. It's also affecting you and making it painful (only once did a DC draw blood biting. OUCH!).
As to what to do...can you get referred to get it cut? If you can't get a referral through a GP there might be a local, LC run clinic where you could go to get referred. HTH

There is such a thing - more info here and some latch/attachment ideas here which I hope will help. But it's nigh on impossible to get them cut over here I understand (I know of someone who's been looking for years and is going to fly her children over to this chap in the US to get it done. Sorry not to be more positive.

Apparently, according to my mother - I had one that was cut at the same time as my TT was cut. But that was 30 a few years ago.

In the US, they cut upper lip ties - or at least some LCs do? I think? (A friend in CA had her son's upper lip tie cut)

My DS1 has an upper lip tie, and we did struggle with BF, but it got better. He will end up having it cut though, sometime, as part of the orthodonty he's having. (Upper lip tie = big gap between the two front teeth.)

It has not caused any problems at all for his speech. I think it would only be an issue if a child couldn't close his mouth, iyswim.

DS3 does have a huuuuuuuge gap between his teeth. His upper lip tie almost seems to go 'behind' his teeth, towards his palate IYSWIM? When you 'lift' his upper lip, the 'bobble' at the bottom of his gum between his teeth goes white, which seems a bit odd.

After looking at the links left by Mollcat - DS3 has the most severe kind, the class 4 attachment. . Why did NONE of the bfc's I saw even remotely look for this, and why didn't the consultant at Kings even LOOK for it?

Express for victory. <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=dig+for+victory&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1366&bih=705&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=Zu7M5JW-JuAYVM:&imgrefurl=www.homesweethomefront.co.uk/web_pages/hshf_dig_for_victory_pg.htm&docid=ElldKqPV6yQGgM&w=428&h=616&ei=ycqPTtTyGuTKsQLg1LymAQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=420&vpy=127&dur=1821&hovh=269&hovw=187&tx=109&ty=129&page=1&tbnh=165&tbnw=117&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">A la war posters.

Wrong thread, sorry.

It isn't something that people commonly know about. I only knew it could happen because I had it and DS1 looked at first like he might too. Luckily he didn't.

I really hope you get it sorted.
Mollcat's second link has some good ideas. It's similar to Rebecca Glover's method (if you can get hold of her DVD 'follow Me Mum' it's well worth a watch. You fold the nipple into your baby's mouth so the attachment is deep rather than them taking in lots themselves (they learn to eventually).

I think the blanching thing is one of the tests they do to see whether it's likely to be a problem for BFing. As far as I know there are only a couple of people who will treat over here. The thinking is that the ties reform, also it's not as easy to snip as a TT. I've no way of getting it treated until it causes an orthodontic problem later. I didn't pursue it because our (not)breastfeeding "journey" has been somewhat overtaken by other issues - I would actually love to be in the position of worrying about the upper lip tie right now because it would mean I could at least latch him on!

But I know that doesn't help you. With upper lip tie, it is now where TT was, say, 10 years ago.

DS also has one which goes all the way through and up the inside of his palate.

Thing is, I have persevered with the bf even though it is NOT working like ti did with the other 3 dc - because he CANNOT drink from a bottle. I WANT to mix feed now, so I can get a break / some sleep - but I can't, and I'm at my wits end.

Oh no Hunty, that is v hard on you. I don't have any other advice/info (you'd know more than me anyway, I'm only on number 1!) but [hug] if you need it.

okay,1)getting milk in other than breastfeeding and b)sleep

a)what about one of those no-spill spout cup things? Can he manage thoseor is that what you meant by 'a Tommee Tippee white & blue non-spill one'? That might work for mixed feeding?
Or an at breast supplementer (SNS) as you could supplement with EBM or formula at the breast and he might go longer between feedings if he's getting more milk?
Also, what is his solids intake like? Could you give him things like yughurt and cheese etc and get EBM.formula into him with breakfast cereals and stuff?

b)Do you cosleep or would you consider it? I found it really helpful just to be lying down to feed even if I didn't nod off.

Can you have early nights to maximise the length of possible sleep time (if that makes sense)?
Do you have family support, someone who could either come over for a few days or you go to them and them look after DC and just being you youngest to you when he is hungry (this is what my mum did for me as DS1 didn't sleep much - we used to spend most weekends there when he was a baby and she would get up to him in the night and just bring him in for a feed and then take him off again so I could rest) and let you sleep?

I do co-sleep -I'd get NO sleep otherwise. Going to bed early - bit of a problem - DD is 13yo, goes to bed at 10pm on a school night, 11pm Fri / Sat. And DS3 wakes up to play at 10pm.

No family help - never gonna happen.

Have tried a no-spill spout cup - that was what I meant! Where would I gte a SNS from - and is it affordable to someone on Benefits?

Solids intake is, quite frankly, pants. He will not be spoon fed ANYTHING. I try to give him cheese every day - but as he won't let me feed him at all, it is hard to do cereal or yoghurt. He is happiest when holding a piece of baby corn - in fact veg is about the only thing he will eat. That and curry with rice, shovelled in in handfuls. . I don't think he eats enough, but HV says that it's not a problem as he is still following his line, and he'll eat more solid food when he is ready, and I shouldn't be concerned till he is at least 1yo.

As for the eating have you tired just doing baby led weaning and letting him try family meal's. As long as you cook without salt he can have almost all of what you have.

Lip tie I think can affect BF, it's something they are really not hot on in the UK as there seems to be a big issue as to wearther it does impact feeding. This lady is very well informed on TT she mite know about lip tie to as the do come hand in hand milkmatters.org.uk/

www.lalecheleague.org.nz/template/articles__information/using_a_nursing_supplementer.pdf this is a LLL leaflet in pdf form about SNS use and if you scroll down there is a bit about homemade SNSs. Where abouts are you? Locally to me a couple of mothers who were really struggling have been given free nursery time through sure start. Or maybe the homestart programme could offer some help? You might be able to get a little sleep in the day. HTH

with the solids what about shredded wheat soaked in milk? He might suck it out of them. Ordinarily I'd say it's wonderful that your HV isn't pushing solids and is following the 'fun-til-one' idea but not a help for you.

I'm wracking my brains trying to think of ideas and what I did with my DC

Please can everyone read, sign and share with others our petition to get Lip Tie checked at birth: epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/44390.
To follow our campaign please like us on facebook at: www.facebook.com/LipTieSupportGroup

Thanks!