Flutter sucks - do you have to get them with every feed?

[ziptoes]

My 5mo DD sleeps horribly, wakes every 2 hours. I initially thought she might be hungry but I'm now wondering if I've just not helped her to get to sleep on her own without feeding. When I asked the HV for advice she said, as expected, to feed as much as possible during the day and tank up in the evening. The thing is I try feeding her as much as possible, but she's very fidgety and tends to pop off for a good peer around after about 10 minutes and then gets annoyed when I try to get her back on. I asked the HV when do I know DD's full and she said "always keep feeding till you get flutter sucks - that way you know she's getting the fattiest milk". The thing is I almost never get flutter sucks, maybe once a day if that. I got them all the time with DS, so I do know what they feel like.

So.. do you always have to get flutter sucks, or do some babies just not bother? Also are flutter sucks an indication that she's getting hindmilk, or just that she's nearly full up?

When she comes off after 10 minutes do you offer the other breast?

I don't know about the fluttery sucking, I thought it was more comfort feeding. I don't think my ds (8 months) really does it anymore anyway.

IME the flutter sucking is comfort feeding - DS usually does it when falling asleep, or after he's hurt himself, but often not during a normal feed. But he's 15 m.o. so might not be a good comparison.

I suspect your HV is talking rubbish. You know your DD is full when she doesn't wants to feed any longer.

If you offer both breasts each time and she is the one to decide when the feed finishes, you can be confident she's getting the fattiest milk.

You can read about the difference in fat levels in milk here.

Waking every 2 hours is very common and almost certainly not a feeding issue in a baby that age (unless she feeds every 2 hours in the daytime too). She probably wakes after each sleep cycle needing help to get back off to sleep again. My DS did it for ages and ages. I'd recommend reading the No-Cry Sleep Solution.

HTH

Thanks. Yes, I offer both breasts at each feed. Sometimes we do both sides several times over, as changing sides seems to get her concentrated on feeding again. HV was also worried that the constant switching would mean she was missing out on hindmilk, but from my MN and kellymom education on hindmilk that doesn't make sense to me.

Any thoughts?

I wouldn't worry about hindmilk - the milk from an emptier breast is fattier than from a full breast anyway, so lots of swapping will mean the baby gets fatty milk too.

I agree with AngelDog - waking lots in the night is more likely a sleep issue than a feeding issue.

My feeling - again, from what I've read on Kellymom and MN - is that unless you're the one forcing her to swap (which you're not by the sound of it) that it's not an issue to worry about. My guess is that she's just distractible - very normal at that age. Kellymom has info here if you've not already seen it.

Thanks, that's what I had decided too. But it made sense to eliminate hunger as an issue. DH and I've been working on shusshpatting instead of me always feeding her to sleep, and although it doesn't seem to have made any difference to the number of times she wakes up, at least it means he can put her back to sleep once in a while.

Shame, I thought we'd found an HV who was relatively clued up.

It's so random with HVs, isn't it?

I found that the issue with sleep wasn't feeding to sleep, but needing help to go to sleep. So DS woke just as often if he was rocked to sleep.

What did help me when DS was 7 months and waking 6 times a night was to use pick up/put down and shush/pat for night wakings but not for bedtime (because I knew it'd make him cry at bedtime, whereas at night he was crying anyway as soon as he woke). It really helped - he'd wake after 45 mins, and then only when he was hungry. I wrote about it here if you're interested. If your DD will go back to sleep for your DH, it would likely work for you.

You are right about the foremilk/hindmilk thing. Keep switching sides if it works for you. My HV talked a lot of nonsense about hindmilk too.

I've not heard the flutter sucks thing before. There is a logic to it - if fluttery sucks signify comfort feeding your DD must be full of milk already and not slurping away hungrily. It might be relevant for a tiny baby (though I doubt it is a hard and fast rule as she seems to suggest). But by 5m my DD was feeding very quickly indeed because she wanted to get back to her toys. She certainly didn't feed for comfort during the day and we never got to fluttery sucks. But she wasn't daft enough to starve herself.

It obviously makes sense to offer as many feeds as poss during the day, but I never found it made much difference to DD's night time sleep. At 5m she woke every two hours because that was when her sleep cycles ended and she entered phases of lighter sleep. She didn't know how to fall asleep herself and needed a feed to relax and drop off again. We used the No Cry Sleep Solution to help us work out other ways to get DD to drop off, and in particular ways for DH to settle her so I could get a bit more kip. It didn't work overnight. But at 6.5m she started doing the occasional 3-4hr slot and then at 8m she started sleeping from 10-5 most nights which was fab. She is now nearly 1 and sleeps 7:30-6 most nights so you can get there, it just takes time. Now if she wakes it is almost always because she is actually hungry so she still has a night feed 1-2 times a week.

Interesting that feeding more in the day didn't seem to increase night sleep. I've been feeding in the day like a maniac (often in the garden in this nice weather - the rather religious neighbors haven't complained yet), especially in the evenings - to tank up. But if it's just sleep cycles, then I guess we need to work on teaching her how to fall back to sleep on her own. Shame that it seems to take so long (1.5 months!) but at least there's light at the end of the tunnel....

Off to bed, as she's just gone down. My mum offered to come up and babysit so DH and I could go out - ha! 10:00 is now a late night for us!

I think how long it takes to improve babies' sleep really depends on the individual circumstances - how ready the LO is to learn to sleep on their own, how established / good their nap pattern is, and how consistent you are. The more consistent you are, the better - which is probably why it took me longer to see improvements than it might.

Good luck! Enjoy the evening.

Thanks again - the early night last night made no difference to DD's sleep, but I feel miles better. The good news is that DS woke his sister up this evening crashing about in his bedroom and DD cried for a bit and ...... drum roll.... fell back to sleep on her own!

Yay!

Woo-hoo!

Thinking about what your HV said about flutter sucks the other night, it occurred to me that flutter sucking is how you know a baby's finished feeding if they fall asleep feeding, so maybe that was what she was talking about.

Oops, should have previewed my italics.

nah, she was saying i needed fluttersucks at every feed in the day too.

Anyway hearing from you that up every 2 hours in the night is relatively common for this age makes things more relaxing. I just have to accept that I need to get to bed early and catch daytime naps when I can. Plus work on getting her not to rely on feeding to sleep.