If newborns can't tell the difference between night and day...

[rubybambini]

...then why does our otherwise content breastfed DD turn into an unrecognisable screamer at 10pm? Just coincidence? We can't fathom what's changing at all.

Anyone else notice this? Any tips to help? I do realise she's still very very very little and finding herself, but...a pattern has to start somewhere and we're worried that a 3-4 hour settling down period every night might be hers, and we'd like to break that pattern sooner than later.

Here's the background:

She's lovely, our first, and just 9 days old today. She seems to want to breastfeed every 3.5 to 4 hours, which is great, and we sometimes have to wake her to feed, she rarely screams (during the day).

So a typical day is feeding at around 6.30, 10ish, 2ish, 6ish. All these feeds / nappy changes, swaddling, bathing and play episodes take 1 to 1.5 hours, and she'll go to sleep quickly and contentedly.

However, a 10pm night feed starting time so far means that we're lucky if she'll drop off before 1am - and this morning 3am - five hours of screaming - arghhh, at our wits end with trying to soothe her.

We tried soothing, walking, music, two nappy changes, a very quiet dark room, watching WeeSee videos on YouTube, some formula, pacifying on my boob, and then finally, expressed breastmilk, as by that time, she'd been screaming so long, she was due another feed. Reading that back, she was quite probably over-stimulated.

I don't think she has colic - as in, she doesn't pull her feet up and her tummy doesn't seem sore - but happy to be corrected on that.

Thanks so much in advance.

I'd try feeding her more often - 3-4 hourly is quite infrequent for a newborn, you want around 10-12 feeds in 24 hours.

Does the breast not pacify her at all at night?

Hi there, she just needs to feed. Look up cluster feeding. If you start the evening feed earlier (about 8ish?) you may get to sleep earlier, but you will be pinned to the sofa all evening!

Don't try to fight it, just relax and feed, the advantages are that hopefully after a massive feed there will be a longer stretch of sleep afterwards when you really need it. I know it's frustrating though when you just want to go to bed yourself.

It doesn't last too long, hopefully by 6 weeks you'll have your evenings back :)

Congratulations!!

Congratulations on your baby!
To start with, she's way too little to have a pattern or to start to think about breaking patterns. This is the stage where I'm afraid you have to fit around your baby. That's really hard to accept when you are tired!
Evening screaming sessions are fairly common - my DD did it and so have the babies of a lot of friends. You are right in that trying loads of things will overstimulate and perhaps make things worse.
Only thing that helped for us was BFing, cuddling and a ride in the car (winter baby). Also swaddling was good to make DD secure.
It will settle down but best just to check with the HV about colic or silent reflux. I also did baby massage to try and relax DD after a bath.
Good luck and hope it doesn't last much longer!

PS - your feeding times make me think Gina Ford?!

Thanks Rita - it has to be worth a go, no, not tried that yet.

Reason being, I thought she should be feeding more frequently, so I've asked several (at least three different) midwives about the times between her feeds, and they've all said it's fine, and that 5.5 hours is really the absolute maximum she could go. I wouldn't feel okay leaving it that long.

Whether that's based on what the midwives have observed in her, or a general rule, I'm not sure. We're in east London, if that makes a shred of difference to their advice, too.

I should point out that she's otherwise healthy, lost just 2oz at her five-day weigh in, most of which MUST have been meconium, never seen anything like it :O

Breast - yes, it will pacify her, but...ping, she's awake within I'd say two minutes of being put into her basket - which she'll happily sleep in the rest of the time. I think I know the sweet spot when she's ready to go down - her lids close, her eyes roll back and she looks punch drunk on milk.

It's as if she knows it's bedtime...but rationally, I know she hasn't got a clue!

Crikey - you guys are all up early too! Thank you!

No, GF has not crossed this threshold - the only book I've read, and admittedly not finished, is the Baby Whisperer. I thought I'd wait to see how we all got on when she was born.

Thanks for the congratulations - looks like we'll try waking her more frequently, that's hard too when she's sleeping so 'tightly' =)

Is sharing a bed with her an option for you? (Because it might suit her.)

Not wanting to sleep alone is normal for a baby. I don't know why she's willing to do it during the day, but not at night. But given, that until recently, she was always inside you, wanting to be next to you is understandable ...

If you are in Tower Hamlets, there are a lot of good BF groups out there.

When I think back those evenings were tough going!
I met a couple with a baby doing exactly the same in a hotel last week. The mother was a bit wild eyed saying "we have tried everything".
It won't be long til you are giving others advice!

Trying to put a little one down at night is tough because it's quieter, colder etc. Also after a day of stimulation, come night time the screaming starts usually because they're overtired and it's all too much. DS was like this until we learnt that most newborn babies can't manage more than 45 mins awake at such a tiny age, so we kept him in the sling or on us a lot in the day which meant he'd nap that much easier when he needed to. That made night times calmer (although he'd wake a lot for feeds).

By 12 weeks, usually earlier, babies will have got the hang of night and day.

Forget having bedtime routines/baths etc - keep things calm and dull as even the most boring thing will stimulate! DS certainly didn't enjoy bedtime routines until he was 4-5 months - before then we didn't bother if he seemed too overexcited or wired. Reading him a bedtime story was madness now we think about it even at 18 months, if he's tired he's not interested and just wants a feed then bed!

It's so normal for newborns not to want to sleep alone at night - I think 90% of them do it! Try keeping her in bed next to you at night - attempting to put her down in a basket will probably just be frustrating for both of you.

5 hours is probably the maximum you'd let a newborn go between feeds, but you would only want one gap of that length in a 24 hour period. I would keep her close to you and feed as often as possible in the daytime - make sure she naps in the living room where it's bright and noisy - and then at night snuggle up in bed and keep in dark and quiet. She'll soon get the hang of day and night that way.

In regards to midwives - as you've discovered they're often not that knowledgeable about breastfeeding unfortunately! Definitely try to find a local breastfeeding group with breastfeeding counsellors.

Back again - thanks all! I think this is what we can't fathom - she'll happily sleep alone in her basket day or night, quiet or noisy. We have her on the floor in the living room with us in the day and really, make no concession to our daily life in the day time, ie cook, clean, watch TV, shout at the cats - absolutely no effect on her sleeping. She's currently asleep in our dark quiet bedroom, in her basket.

I feed her in the bright noisy living room, in her quiet nursery and in our quiet bedroom - in the day time she's fine with all these situations, it's As If She Knows that's it's our bedtime at around 10pm, but that's highly unlikely I guess.

For example, after I posted my OP, I fed, changed and put her in her basket (in a quiet dark room, with OH in bed in same room) - within 30 minutes, and have just done the same at 9.45 til 10.15 (in a quiet dark room, ditto). So I'm going to try little and often today and tonight and see what happens.

One other random factor I can think of is that I'm injecting Clexane, usually around 8.30pm as advised.

I'm okay with the sleepless thing so far because a) it's what I've taken a year off work to do and b) I haven't slept properly in months so I've had considerable practice. OH however...is finding it harder to acclimatise.

And it's actually really fascinating to try work out what's changing and why, we're both problem-solving people, tho I think we're temporarily outfoxed.

Out of interest - do you tend to change / feed / sleep, or feed / change /sleep - or some other combination?

Thanks so much for your supportive and speedy replies. And yes, we're in TH, and in fact, a counsellor was due to call yesterday but I've realised, didn't. We'll get on to that.

I just fed when he was hungry and changed him when he needed changing - you don't have to do things in a special order. DS mostly fell asleep at the breast.

Babies just don't like to sleep alone at night - how ever many thousands of years of evolution has made them want to sleep snuggled up at the breast I found the first 2 weeks toughest for sleep deprivation, but once I got into the habit of sleeping while the baby does - and especially feeding lying down at night - it was fine.

Remember you can't feed a newborn too much, but it is possible to feed too little. If in doubt, feed.

Agree with Rita.

with ds1, I had spreadsheets and everything to try to get him to sleep.

With ds2, I vowed to go with the flow because the spreadsheet crap just didn't work!!!

Feed and cuddle your dd and learn to breastfeeding lying down so you can go to bed with her at 10pm and get way more sleep than pacing the floor for 5hrs!

If anyone tells you that you are making a rod for your own back, then tell them where to go!!

I only changed for a pooh and fed when she woke. Otherwise you end up disturbing the baby rather than the other way round. The thing I miss most about baby DD was her tiny self curled up on me in bed. It's not the same with a kicking toddler when I try to replicate it!

Hee - thank you.

Love the 'If in doubt, feed'. That's going on a plaque outside our door.

Only feeding with right boob for the last few feeds, as left boob is MIA and far too painful to feed from right now. I'm expressing from that side, which means we've got an emergency supply of milk in the fridge now, so OH can do his bit if need be, tho I'd prefer to do from the boob only, in an ideal world, ho ho ho.

Will try the co-sleeping tonight if the same thing happens - it bothers me that I'm so dead to the world when I fall asleep that I'll roll on her, but I'll make some kind of nest.

And yes, it's so cute when she's on me - we think she sounds like a little piglet, all that rooting and snuffling. Maybe we won't tell her that when she's older =)

You'll probably find you have a sixth sense for where the baby is in the bed, even in your sleep. I'm a really fidgety sleeper but when ds is next to me I stay in exactly the same position and am hyper-aware of him. Just make sure the baby is next to you and not DH, as dads don't have the same natural awareness.

Check out the Unicef co-sleeping leaflet

I don't know of anyone who has rolled on their baby when they have been purposely co-sleeping. The danger is when exhausted parents accidentally fall asleep on sofas with their babies.

Oh and I LOVE this too - breastfeed in your sleep!

The first frames of that animation ring very true right now - thanks Rita =)

I sleep like the dead normally but have had 3 babies in the bed with me from birth to 2+ and never rolled on any of them... honestly, you are aware of them even when you sleep.

I'd also agree with the advice above about cluster feeding at night. With mine I nominated a time, around 8ish that was 'bedtime' and got baby changed into sleep clothes, clean nappy, etc. Then I plonked myself on the couch with them in my arms and let them feed until comatose. I kept them in the room with me (moses basket or if you have a big corner sofa with no fear of rolling off like us that works great too) and they'd wake up every 20 mins to half hour to feed. When i was going to bed i brought them up with me, if they were asleep they were popped in the crib, if not straight in the bed with me. When they woke during the night they came in with me. I never changed nappies at night unless they pooed and lights were kept low, just a night light in the bedroom.

At about 2.5/3 months they starts sleeping for longer stretches between feeds in the evening and once they were going 2 hours plus on a fairly regular basis i started popping them straight into the crib when they went down.

My eldest two have had a regular 7.30 bedtime since they were 1 and been brilliant at settling at that time, they gradually stopped coming into the bed at night between 1 and 3 other than when they're sick. The youngest is a different story but that's because he gets away with murder due to other issues So no rods for backs here due to the first few months of cluster feeding and co-sleeping.

Congratulations on your little girl and good luck... remember the mantra 'This too will pass'

My now 3 week old had this problem with not wanting to sleep in her cot at night, but would happily sleep there during the day. A wise midwife suggested we try a hot water bottle on the cot before we put her down. It works wonders. The midwife says it's because newborns don't like cold surfaces and the bed is colder at night then the morning.

Totally typical evening fussiness/cluster feeding.

If a newborn got to 6 hours without a feed during the day, you'd be heading towards hospital IMO. I was told with DD that I needed to wake her after 4 hours, but that's only okay as a one-off, not the regular time gap. They need to be having 8+ feeds a day, so do the math. 2 hourly during the day and 3 hourly at night works well and as they get a bit older, you can start to stetch the night gaps.

Oh and try white noise plus a heated (hot water bottle removed before putting baby in) bed. Babies often sleep best during the day when it's noisier and warmer. They don't like silence!

It happened again - so yes, looks like night time fussiness. All other feeds yesterday, 8 or 9 from memory, not got the piece of paper beside me, completely fine - 45 mins - 1 hour door-to-door.

Did an 8pm feed, then started another one at 10.30pm - and after 10 mins, unlike other feeds, she started fussing on the breast eg, head shaking, fists in mouth, little wails and cracks - finally got her off at 230am, after feeding her 40mls of expressed morning milk (my breasts just felt 'empty'. We managed to keep her calm this time, so no screaming, just extreme fussiness. Mainly quiet by being on my boob, where she wasn't really nursing, just gentle sucks, no swallowing that I could tell. Also had two explosive nappies in that four hours).

I'll chat to a bf counsellor when we're back from a couple of days visiting relatives. Might rely on some expressed milk tonight, the volume seems to send her off...are my 'night boobs' failing me?!