Getting baby to sleep through night- FF night feed amounts?

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My DS is 9 weeks old and has been FF exclusively from 2 weeks (couldn't breastfeed ). From about week 2 he has pretty much got the hang of day and night, going down at 10pm and waking only for feeds and going back down to sleep, and since 6 weeks old has been having bath, feed and cuddle and then going down to sleep at 7pm. He is then woken at about 10.30pm (if hasn't woken before) for a nappy change, cuddle and feed, and then goes back to sleep, usually waking between 3 and 4 am for feed, before going back to sleep until 6-7am.

I know this is really, really good for a 9 week old, but was wondering how we can start to stretch him so he goes until 5am in the night, until he's fully sleeping through the night? His current feeding schedule is as follows:

7am - 180mls
11am- 180mls
2.30-3pm- 150-180mls
6.30pm - 150-180mls
10.30-11pm - anything from 100mls - 180mls (hit and miss depending on how tired he is!)

I guess what I want to know is: am I feeding him the right amounts at the right times, and how much should I be feeding him at his night feed in order to get him to eventually sleep through the night? Not sure whether I should give him a full feed when he wakes at 3-4am, or whether I should give him a smaller one i.e. 100mls then?

He naps for 45mins-1hr in the morning, 2 hours over lunch, and about half an hour late afternoon.

What do other people do? Not in any big hurry, but would be nice, as i'm often not sure if his 3am waking is habit now or hunger!

Will post this in parenting too!

We used to give ours hungry baby milk at the 10-11 pm feed, and later when he was older, he got the good night milk (which is even stronger stuff).

Although I personally think you and your baby are doing brilliantly.

have been told that hungry baby milk doesn't contain any extra calories, but is just harder to digest. So it could result in the baby going longer on less cals, and therefore not getting what they need.

I think you are doing really well and just need to relax. Your dd will sleep through when she is ready. And will then probably stop sleeping through again when she is ready too. They are a bit like that!

Thanks gingercat12

Can you give hungry baby milk at any age or is he a bit small for this yet? If we were to give him hungry baby milk, would we have to cut down on the amount of other feeds that he has the rest of the day?

Moonface- agree that I probably need to relax a bit more

He's my first so have nothing to compare to, and i'll probably have another who's a nightmare! I should just be grateful for the fact that he mostly sleeps well and now goes down at 7pm so DP and I have a bit of an evening together!

oops, sorry, menu your ds....reading too many threads in quick succession.

Good luck.

You're doing very very well. You need to a) get more milk in during the day to make up for taking out the middle of the night feed. b) keep baby awake for a little longer at 10.30 so he takes a really good feed and is tired again for bed.
I would suggest

1. Keep up the late afternoon sleep: if he gets over tired he will go to bed too early, sleep too deeply and then not need not much sleep between 11pm and 7 am
2. cluster feed in the early evening. Give about 90- 120ml before his bath and the same after. This will result in a bigger feed.
3. Wake him up properly at 10pm. this is a great opportunity for daddies to play with the baby they've missed all day while at work. Also baby will be well awake and able to take a good feed. I gave hungry baby formula at this feed.

A note about hungry baby formula: same number of calories but different protein (caseine instead of whey), so harder to digest. It did cause a bit of an upset tummy with DS, so I would suggest introducing it gradually at the late night feed, so if you are making up 180ml bottles, use 1scoop hungry baby to 5 scoops normal, then up the hungry baby and reduce the normal each night. Once you're on 100% hungry baby for this feed, cut the middle of the night feed, either by:

1. going cold turkey
2. gradually reducing it by 30 ml every couple of days
3. replacing it with water.

The whole process from start to finish will take a couple of weeks probably.

9 weeks is too young for controlled crying (not advised before 6 months).

This is what Gina Ford suggests and worked for us. My DS slept 11pm to 7am from about 8 weeks with no night feed. I would seriously recommend Gina Ford, no need to follow it to the letter, but some of it is really helpful for trouble shooting. Good luck!

Firstly, it sounds like you're doing really well :)

Our DD didn't sleep through the night until 4 and a half months, so I really wouldn't worry about this - your DS will sleep through when he is ready to. 9 weeks is still very young in my opinion and he'll get there eventually. Don't listen to your mum/MIL/friends etc if they ever say "Is he sleeping through yet?"! Used to drive me nuts.

Our DD used to get woken for a feed at 11pm too, and I think this helped as she then woke up at 3 or 4 for another feed, before settling down again until morning. Her middle of the night feed gradually moved further and further back until it was 5am or just after, until she stopped waking and went right through to morning.

We were told by a BFing clinic and the HV that you work out how much milk a baby under 6 months needs in a day by multiplying their weight in lbs by 2.5, then dividing by the number of feeds you give. So, a 10lb baby needs 25 ounces a day. If they were having 5 feeds a day that's 5 ounces a feed. It's best to add an extra ounce or two so that they're not draining the bottle, just in case they are hungrier at a particular feed.

Just a note about hungry baby formula - all formulas other than first-stage formulas (that is, 2nd stage, follow-on, hungry baby etc) are 'neither needed or recommended' and its best to stick with first-stage milks until your baby is a year old, unless advised to by a Doctor or Health visitor. they are harder to digest.

That is - "neither needed or recommended" according to the NHS in the leaflets I was given about FFing and weaning.

He doesn't have that much really and he isn't taking huge feeds so I wouldn't rush to offer hungry baby milk which would just only fill him up more without offering much more in the way of fluids or calories.

He is likely to sleep all night when he is developmentally ready and his growth pattern is changing - you don't really want him to reduce his overall intake yet as he is still so young. The downside of dropping a night feed without taking more in the day is that he will lose weight, or won't gain much, or will be hungry!

The Sensational Baby Sleep Plan says to water down the formula / breastmilk if the baby (8 week old) wakes in the night, so that a baby taking 180ml at a feed:-

Nights Breastmilk/ formula Water
1, 2, 3 120ml 40ml
4, 5, 6 90ml 40ml
7, 8, 9 60ml 60ml
10, 11, 12 30ml 60ml
13, 14 Just water 60ml

Most of what I was going to suggest has been said by sprinkles77. I was lucky enough to have sleepers by 6 weeks with both of mine and I do think that it is mainly luck. However, you can at least see how much they're taking with formula and have a reasonable idea as to whether they're hungry when they wake.

We offered feeds at much closer intervals later in the day (I think with DD1, who was FF, I think it was something like 3pm, 5pm, 7pm, 9pm). The final feed was basically a case of as much as we could convince them to take and then to bed. We didn't then wake them and they went until about 2am initially and naturally that stretched through the night towards 4/5ish. At that point, I started to reduce the nightime feed and was planning to replace it with water or more dilute formula, but they both started sleeping through before that.

Also, at nightime feeds, we treated it all totally differently. Lights v. low. No noise, distractions, even eye contact. Helps them to realise that waking up for a play isn't worth it and if they need food that's what they'll get, but no more.

Water down milk for an 8-9 week old baby?

Dear god that's dangerous.

yeah, not advised to water down formula. Don't!

As for NHS guidelines...they're just that. You can use your initiative too! We used hungry baby formula for one feed only (the 10.30pm one), and DS still had the recommended amount of milk over the 24 hours.

Part of helping baby to sleep 11-7 is teaching them the difference between night and day. Night is for sleeping, day for milk. So as poppysocks said, if you have to feed in the night, do it quickly, quietly and in the dark. We had a small plug in night light (a couple of quid from mothercare) right near the chair we fed in. Left it on all night and didn't turn any lights on to feed. Didn't change the nappy unless I could actually smell poo (didn't undress DS to check).

Also, make life easy for yourself by having bottle by your bed ready to use. I used room temperature water and pre- measured powder. Never warmed a bottle. This is not what the guidelines would tell you to do!

That 'sensational' sleep plan is famous for rubbish, dangerous advice - she is Australian I think, and I would not like her to be well-known over here!!

Possett - your baby is sleeping well and sounds like he has a little routine going that suits him just fine.

Shame to rock the boat :)

please do not make formula with room temp water. The powder contains bacteria and needs to be made with hot water to minimise the risk of babies getting ill. Especially at sub a young age.

I would be wary of encouraging a baby to take more milk than they naturally want. Isn't exactly setting healthy eating paterns for life is it?

MoonFace, you're absolutely right, making up with room temperature water is totally not what the manufacturers or the NHS recommend. However I and lots of mums do it with no problems (I did it from birth). Up to the individual to make a decision. Instead you could keep hot water in a thermos ready to make up the bottle, or do it the same way as you do in the day.

As for healthy eating patterns, if what I suggested doesn't suit the baby, it'll make it very clear by not feeding / sleeping as expected. I don't think eating at night is part of healthy eating patterns, and I also think that eating, like all behaviours, evolves as the baby growns, so patterns set now do not need to determine what happens later....eventually milk will only form a small part of baby's diet, and who is going to give solids during the night? Also once baby has teeth you're going to need to brush them after a bottle, not ideal in the middle of the night.

yes sprinkles it is for every one to make decisions re making up ff for them self. But i can not stand by while people hand out advice that could put a babies life at risk, without stating the risks.

Op there have been lots of threads on this topic so do search for the correct guidelines etc before making a decision. Hot (ie 70 degree) water is best. You can then chill the bottle quickly and use as required. But as i say do please do some research on the matter.
Also sprinkles re feeding paterns. Iirc one of the reasons ff is associated with obesity is that it is very easy for a baby to overfeed/be over fed at times, rather than feeding related to hunger and that this patern can be set for life. I have to say that imo eating at night is a healthy eating pattern for a nine* week old baby. At this tender age it is important that newborns have their needs met. Be it hunger, comfort, attention whatever.

And infact yes i have given solids in the middle of the night, responding when my child is hungry. Infact i have recently posted about this on other threads.

*sorry op. I didn't want to this to be about negs of ff (that's why i didn't go in to detail in pp's) but i think you deserve to have the facts to make decisions about how to go about feeding your lo.

I agree, do your research and make your own mind up. If in doubt follow guidelines, they are often based on good science. I have said several times, including the first time I suggested it, that making up with room temperature water (even if previously boiled) is NOT recommended.

Research does show that ff babies are more prone to obesity. There are other factors involved too, and ffing does not guarantee a fat child any more than bfing guarantees all the benefits provided.

We all take some risks. Individuals have to decided for themselves what risks they are prepared to take and how they would feel if the consequences materialised.

With regard to meeting your baby's needs, like I said, if what I suggested doesn't suit the baby, it'll make it very clear by not feeding / sleeping as expected.

p.s. here are the guidelines

www.nhs.uk/Planners/birthtofive/Pages/making-up-formula.aspx

I think that any night time waking by my DS is because he needs something, and at 9 weeks I really don't think it can be a habit. So if you can anticipate what the baby might need and deal with it before if happens you increase your chances of a happily sleeping baby and mummy too. OP, if you want baby to sleep 6 hours straight, I don't think YABU in trying to cluster feed in the evening so the total amount of formula is correct.

If baby is not that hungry for his morning bottle at 7am having had a night feed then I think you can gradually cut the night feed. If he guzzles it, despite cluster feeding, a 10.30 pm feed and a night feed, he's not ready.

Wow, thanks for your responses everyone! Some interesting advice and opinions here.

Don't think i'll be trying the watering down of a feed, it can't be good for them can it? I'd rather just try and reduce a night feed if necessary i think... not too worried about FF causing DS obesity in the long run- I was FF and i'm not exactly packing on pounds, and don't intend to let DS get too porky however I can see what you're saying as HV said that FF babies tend to put on weight more easily as parents can see exactly what they're getting so do feed to guidelines more as opposed to being baby-led like most breastfed babies who might take less.

I think i'll just go with the flow as tiktok says, as DS is doing well and in a pretty good routine already, and hope he will shortly start to stretch his sleep- think i'm expecting a lot from him as my Mum said that my older brother and sister both slept through the night from 10 and 11 weeks, and I was a "horror who didn't sleep through until 4 months"!!!!! She made it sound like 4 months is 'getting on a bit' for sleeping through the night!!

If it helps, my 11 week old has followed very similar routine. We feed roughly every 3 hours and I feed when baby wants rather than a strict timetable. From about 9 weeks she started sleeping longer through the night, I think she slept about an hour longer each night, initially dropping the 4/5am feed, then the 7/8am feed.
However we couldn't get her to sleep before 1am and always had to have a really late feed at night but she would sleep until after 10am in the morning! I started waking her for a feed around 9am and just this week she has started going to sleep between 11 and 12pm. So now we feed at 9am, 12, 3, 7, 10pm roughly and she has 160-180ml each time. She naps during the day but only for 30 to 60 minutes, sometimes longer if we're out in the car.
It sounds like your DS is doing just fine (assuming my DD is doing ok too!!) and will find his own natural rhythm.

Don't listen to anyone who says "my lo slept through from x days/weeks" They either remember it wrongly...or are yet to hit the four month sleep regression.