Breast feeding blues

[Wills]

Hi, I wanted to start this thread because I know that I'm having a crap time feeding dd2 on the breast and I can see that there are others out there also struggling. I'm hoping that others will join me on this thread that are also having a tough time so that we can all comiserate and support each other.

Becca - Spoke to the bf counsellor. She was very sympathetic and gave me help over the phone. Basically though the bad news is that I have to try and clear the thrush!!!! Which will take a lot longer using nystatin than the other stuff, however she's happy for me to phone her regularly - case of grinning and bearing it. The nystatin is unlikely to take away the pain for another 7/10 days so here goes!!!

Recently my lhs has started to engorge however I think thats because the rhs is finally picking up. However if my breasts feel limp, dd2 still manages a good feed so I shouldn't worry about the sensation. I do know they don't have to feel like they've been filled with cement to provide a good feed.

Another point to add - aim the nipple to the baby's nose and you will get it in the upper half of the mouth as Tiktok describes.

OK, Help! I'm really not having a good time of this and would give up except that I'm told going to bottles would just make the whole thing worse for dd2. DD2 is feeding every 1.5-2 hours and has done for the last 5-7 days etc. The thrush is still viralent despite having now taken counter measures for the last 3 weeks. DD2's bottom looks like a big wound despite alternating the creams daktarin and metanium. And to top it off my breasts have engorged and I can't seem to get any relief despite trying feeding, massaging, hot bath, flannels etc. I feel completely tied to the living room sofa and honestly feel like screaming - that or running away. I'm hoping to see both my bf councellor and my gp tomorrow, however I'm not confident of a quick solution. The bf counsellor seems fairly reluctant to help until the thrush is cleared up and my gp feels that this will be a very long haul and has hinted that it would be better for me to start bottle feeding. Every time I see dd2's bottom it makes me want to cry. I shall use all the links posted here but if anyone could suggested why I'm engorging in just part of my breast I'd be grateful. I keep putting dd2 back to that breast but whilst the rest of the breast empties it doesn't seem to get any better in that one area despite massaging until I'm red whilst she's on the breast.

Sorry about the rant but feeling very very blue

Wills, have you taken Diflucan yet for the thrush? It sounds agonizing you poor thing.

Wills - I really feel for you.... this is HOREENDOUS.
Have you read this ? It is EXCELLENT and might highlight things you are not yet doing...

I have also asked a lactation consultant friend of mine for help too.... I hope she is around.

Hang in there ! Please do - I know it is hell ! You are doing brilliantly and you can beat this !

Wills - are you trying different positions for feeding? You could be engorged in one part of the breast because it is not being emptied properly. Try various positions when feeding ie. baby across your tummy, rugby hold, propped upright at the breast etc.
You might be in overproduction mode because you have been feeding so frequently. Overfeeding can cause frothy stools in the baby resulting in a sore bottom. Have you tried just feeding from one side at a time? Where you would normally switch sides, put dd back on the same side so she is getting fattier hind milk and will go longer between feeds. You could express from the other side initially if it is full. Since your breasts are so full, try expressing to get them emptied to give you relief. Have a look at the link I posted earlier to bunnyrabbit.
Have you had a swab sent off to confirm thrush? Seems an awful long time to still be suffering. What about the Diflucan?
Hope it gets better for you soon. Get a swab from dd's bottom too to confirm thrush. Could be a red herring. Hope it gets better for you soon, mears.

My friend lactation consultant (HIGHLY experienced) has e-mailed this back - HTH

The thrush thing - the baby may want feeding more often? (or is this usual for her), because of a growth spurt or because the thrush is hurting the baby's mouth so he's having shorter but more frequent feed. She should be using daktarin in the babies mouth as well (check which version she has - may need a different one for the mouth) or nystatin drops or gel, plus miconazole on her nipples, plus all the usual thrush self help stuff like diet, hygiene (washing hands before and after every nappy feed, seperate towels for all the family etc. and possibly treating partner as well. The engorgement is likely because the babe is taking the milk because of the sore mouth, engorgement should be treated by more feeding or expressing on that side, changing position, breast compression whilst feeding on that side, hot flannels when the milk is flowing only, ibuprofen to reduce inflammation, being extremely gentle with the breast because of bruising, and putting cold compresses/cabbage on the breast between and after feeds.

Just thought I'd post some info about thrush fom my La Leche Leaue Question and Answer book.

Mother and baby need to be treated simultaneously for at least two weeks. In severe cases, the symptoms may take 3-5 days to disappear.

Suggest the mum rinses her nipples with clear water and air dries them after each nursing, as thrush thrives on milk and moisture. Before the pain has gone, the following suggestions may help make nursings less painful:

• offer short, frequent feedings

nurse on the least sore side first (if there is one), and

• break the baby's suction before taking him off the breast by gently pulling on the baby's chin or pulling on the corner of his mouth.

Once thrush has been confirmed, encourage the mother to take precautions so that thrush does not reappear.(pupuce has covered those)

Expressed milk can be fed to the baby, but milk expressed during an outbreak should not be saved and frozen. Freezing deactivates yeast but does not kill it. So if the frozen milk is given to the baby after treatment is completed, it couldcause thrush to recur.

The section from this book does suggestsending a milk sample to have the diagnosis of candida albicans confirmed

There is more on this link|linkwww.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBMayJun93p83.html\here{}

Basically it is what is in my book - wish I had found itr before I started typing

Just thought I'd post some info about thrush fom my La Leche Leaue Question and Answer book.

Mother and baby need to be treated simultaneously for at least two weeks. In severe cases, the symptoms may take 3-5 days to disappear.

Suggest the mum rinses her nipples with clear water and air dries them after each nursing, as thrush thrives on milk and moisture. Before the pain has gone, the following suggestions may help make nursings less painful:

• offer short, frequent feedings

nurse on the least sore side first (if there is one), and

• break the baby's suction before taking him off the breast by gently pulling on the baby's chin or pulling on the corner of his mouth.

Once thrush has been confirmed, encourage the mother to take precautions so that thrush does not reappear.(pupuce has covered those)

Expressed milk can be fed to the baby, but milk expressed during an outbreak should not be saved and frozen. Freezing deactivates yeast but does not kill it. So if the frozen milk is given to the baby after treatment is completed, it couldcause thrush to recur.

The section from this book does suggestsending a milk sample to have the diagnosis of candida albicans confirmed

There is more on this link

here

Basically it is what is in my book - wish I had found itr before I started typing

Here is more more

I'm afraid I am about to let you all down and give DS formula for his next feed.
He's just taken a huge chunk out of my left nipple and there is no way I can feed him on it for at least 8 hours, and my right nipple is also in a bad way. Hopefully by missing a feed my right can gain some respite and may be OK to use again for the feed after the next one but I just don't know how long I can keep this up. I can't see there is anything wrong with my positioning but he just doesn't do what his supposed to: his bootom lip is in not out and he appears to be closing his mouth on my boob whch can't be right. I have to pry his gums open with my little finger to get him off. Yet I always make sure his mouth is wide open as he lathes on. Feels like soneone stabbing my nipple and grating it at the same time.

I've tried everything I can and can do no more. Just tried to hand express and can't get a thing out. Am in so much pain I'm not really that surprised. So upset can't stop crying....

BR

Oh BR! I feel for you. You are not letting anyone down by giving formula, you are using it as it is supposed to be used - when breastfeeding is not possible. You are trying your absolute best (and then some IMO)
I have no practical advice, but I am up at this time and just wanted you to know that I have been following this and am so proud of you for trying so hard.
Please don't cry - give the formula without guilt and have some sleep. Hope you feel better in the morning.

Thank you for the support. My DH says he just wants to see me happy with the baby. He knows I hate to admit defeat, but if DS doesn't want to feed (if he's as stubborn as his mum) then there's not a lot I can do.

Have sterilised some nipple shields so will be giving these a go and will talk to the BFC in the morning, but I think tomorrow is crunch time. I either crack breastfeeding, or get on with life.

At least if my nipples don't hurt anymore I can go to sleep with DS on my front again.

Not gonna get much sleep tonight, lying on my back...

BR

Feeding your baby is only one part of being a mum. First priority is to be a happy mum. You also have to be happy with your decision though, and that's why its great you are in contact with a BFC. Hope you find a path which is the right one for you. Lots of hugs from NZ

BR - just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you & really hope you get through the night okay. Please dont feel bad about giving your baby the bottle of formula - you are not giving him anything bad, just something different.
I too had a very tough time b/f at beginning, and it was also my DH that ended up insisting I give DS a bottle of formula at times so that I could get reprieve from my bleeding nipplies. I remember crying my eyes out at the time, and I felt so guilty I couldnt even give the bottle of formuala, DH had to.
In the end things did come good for me, with Lanisoh cream healing up my nipples, and I am still b/f at 4 mths. BUT I still will give DS an odd bottle of formula if I feel I really need a break.
So please dont feel bad if you give the odd bottle or even if you end up completely bottle-feeding. You're not letting anyone at MN down - they will be here to support whichever way you end up feeding your little one. So proud of you for getting as far as you have done. You are a fantastic mum.

I showed this thread to my DH last night and he was astounded at the support and encouragement from people who have never met and don't know each other from Adam. I have a large circle of friends, many with children, and a very supportive family, and yet it's you guys on mumsnet who are there in the middle of the night when all seems so dark and depressing.

I did give the formula feed which he happily took. I have just fed him for 30 mins off righty, and he was still crying so I gave him an oz of formula and he is now happy. After watching him feed, DH and I have decided he just isn't doing it properly. I have loads of milk, but he just doesn't seem to have worked out how to get to it. Bottom lip is tucked in and no matter how much boob I get in his mouth he still brings his jaws together and chomps, which is why it feels like my skin is being pulled I suppose.

Will call the BFC at 8.30, but don't hold out much hope as there's no way to make DS read the manual!!

Am slowly coming to terms with the idea that DS is just not going to do this. As my husband said last night, he's a bad mother sucker!!!

BR

BR - Take 1 step at a time.... speak to your BF counsellor... see if she can get him to latch on properly again.
This does not ahve to be the end of BF if YOU don't want it to be.
My best friend expressed every day several times a day for her down syndrom little girl as she could not latch on the breast (fairly common in DS).
Your baby WILL latch on properly - they all do at some point.... the question is can you hang on ? I do know how distressing this can all get... but we BF Counsellors will come to you and support you if that is what YOU want ! We do this to help mums....
I do admire you for sticking with it... I had very difficult (BF) problems with my DS and I was very much "grin and bear" but when it finally worked it was FAB! and very easy too....

BR, I'd just like to add my support to everyone else's - you're trying so hard, well done. Maybe the nipple shields will help, they were my saving grace. I know BFC's don't like them much and I fully understand the reasons why but when it's a case of nipple shields or stopping bfing, I think you've nothing to lose by trying them. I found that I needed them mainly at the start of a feed, when the baby's suck was at its most powerful, (I'd remove them part way through the feed) then needed them for less and less time in each feed, until I could give them up altogether. I probably used them for three or four days in total, it really was as short a time as that, though it felt like forever.

Whatever you decide to do, best wishes - and it's good to see your DH can still keep a sense of humour about the matter, his comment made me lol!

Bunnyrabbit - have you been able to get a breastpump? Have you tried expressing whan ds is asleep and the pressure is off?
Try and think of your problem in simple terms. Baby needs milk. Until you can get milk expressed, formula is what baby meeds. Do not think that by giving formula you must give up breastfeeding. Giving formula will make you feel happier that your baby is not starving while you concentrate on getting your nipples healed.
hilst your nipples are healing, you need to get the milk expressed to avoid engorgement and mastitis. Practice doing it in the bath or shower by hand until you successfully get the milk to flow. It can take a few minutes for the letdown to kick in. Once it does the milk flows more freely. If you can tolerate the suction of a breastpump you can use that - better to get the milk flowing by hand expression first. Handexpressing is so easy once you have the knack - hence why I am saying practice in the bath or shower.
Have you been shown how to cup feed? Cup feeding is amazingly easy and helps avoid the baby being taught how to bottle feed when he hasn't learnt to breastfeed yet. Might be better for you. Ask your counsellor about it.
It still can be turned round BR - you deserve a medal for the effort you have put in so far. At the end of the day, whatever decision you make it the right one for you and you will not be letting anyone down - we are full of admiration for you. Best wishes, mears.

What can I say. Thank you all so much for your encouragement and support.

Unfortunately my hand expressing only yields 1oz at a time, takes about 20 mins, but that's better than nothing. Drip by drip, no jet stream for me. I'm expressing from each breast about every 2 hours. Do you think that's enough? I feel like I've spent all day leantover a bottle massaging my boobs!! At least it's good for the mastitus.

Nipple shields don't work as DS is still gripping with his gums which is very painful. Also, he definitely has not been feeding effectively, so at least I know that he is getting sustenance when I bottle feed. At least a 1/3 of his feed is my milk.

Tried cup feeding precious breast milk this morning. Very slowly, drop at a time, waiting for burps etc. Then DS threw it back up. Waste of 1/2 oz of liqiud gold, so I'm afraid he's on the bottle.

Am trying to find somewhere I can hire an electric breast pump. Left a message for the local Mava rep. Does anyone know where else I could hire one?

BFC is coming over tomorrow afternoon, but I don't hold out much hope. At least I'll be able to give her a thank you card for all her efforts.

BR

I think most NCT groups normally have electric breast pumps for hire. You could try contacting them. I think the general NCT website is

\linkwww.nctpregnancyandbabycare.com{}

Each group normally has their own subweb, administered locally so a internet search may also come up trumps.

Another electic pump make is Egnell, maybe a search for that may also help.

Good on you for perservering!

bunnyrabbit, email me your address and I'll send you my Medela minielectric breastpump - its all yours! contact me through the top....

bunnyrabbit, I rented mine from Ameda Egnell , which myersthecat mentioned. I couldn't hand express very well either.

I don't know if it will be the same for you, but it hurt less for me to express than it did for him to feed when things weren't going great.

Hope all goes better for you.

BR - get a breast pump but equally get your BF counsellor to show you how to hand express.... if you ring me I can talk you through it too.
My number is on my website
You can ring - I get many BF calls every week and yo don't even tell me you're BR! You can call from 8 AM to 10 PM.

Mears is right - if you give formula it doesn't mean NO MORE breastmilk ! It doesn't have to be one or the other and you can help yourself now with some formula (put your mind at ease) and bf will improve. Don't give up completely....

BR - I had terrible cracking and bleeding nipples with DD1 and cracked nipples just 2 wks ago with DD2 (1 month old). Both times, the thing that solved it was breast cups instead of breast pads. They collect the leaks and allow your nipples room to "breathe". I am using the medela electric pump now - what a winner! It is so quick. I give her a bottle of expressed milk at night now as it is so much quicker. It also makes me know that I have about 3.5oz of milk in each breast per feed, that way if she is "asking for food" I know she wants to suck herself to sleep and not really hungery at all. Also, I have found no problem with giving her bottles occasionally while breastfeeding her most of the time and I did this from week 1. It took 3 weeks for my bleeding nipples to heal and I hope yours do very soon!

BR, I too use the Ameda Egnell electric pump, which is excellent. You don't have to use the flexishield so that you have more room for your nipples inside the funnel - which is essential when you're so sore. You will start to see healing results in a day or two.

Lots of hugs x