I think i've had enough

[anne74]

I just don't know if I can take any more.

Just when I think things are turning a corner, they go downhill again. I've posted other threads with the issues I've been having but I guess it all came to a head tonight when DS vomited blood. While he was feeding I noticed my left nipple was bleeding, but when he vomited it was really scary. I then was able to calm down when I realised it was probably just the blood he had swallowed when feeding.

His latch had been getting so much better, with a nice wide mouth (on occasion) and pain free feeding. One nipple had completely healed which was so exciting but this is now the one which is bleeding. It doesn't even look that bad, there's just one tiny spot in the centre of the nipple. My other nipple however just doesn't seem to be healing but we were at least managing to feed pretty much pain free. I really thought we had turned the corner and were on the home straight.

But he's been so unsettled all day today and wanting to constantly feed. After every feed he has been screaming for more and I have kept putting him back on the boob but there is only so many times I can do that given the state of my nipples.

I've been trying to feed as much as possible to boost my supply but despite my boobs feeling pretty full, he just doesn't seem to be getting the milk. He seems to be using his tongue in the same way as he does when he has a bottle, curling it around the boob, rather than massaging the boob to get the milk to flow. He's then getting frustrated as the milk isn't coming. I can feel my right boob heading towards mastitis so have just expressed to release the pressure a bit. It is just so frustrating when I can see the milk is there but he doesn't seem to be benefitting from it. He also seems to be rubbing the areola with his tongue which is getting really sore. That's what stops me being able to carry on with a feed. It feels like such bad friction. It keeps surprising me that the skin hasn't actually broken down on the areola.

We've been trying so hard to get this whole breastfeeding business right. I've been breastfeeding for 7 weeks now despite 3 tongue tie ops, being 5 weeks prem, and being generally tiny and with nipples that wouldn't be recognised as nipples. I don't really want to give up after all we've been through but I just don't know how much more I can take.

I have had to give him a bottle of formula this evening to see if that helps him settle and straight away he has calmed right down. he had the whole 90mls and has then lain down beside me on the sofa very calmly and now has drifted off to sleep. That just proves to me that he hasn't been getting enough milk all day. I have been reluctant to give him a bottle as I don't want to encourage this issue we're having of how he uses his tongue. If I don't give my boobs a break though there will just be no way I can continue.

I plan to give him bottles all night to give myself a break but I just don't know whether to call it a day, express as much as I can so he gets breastmilk whenever possible, and move to bottles or try to push on through. I was hoping that as he gets a bit bigger he will latch on better but I don't know how much longer that will take and if I can last that long.

He is so much more content this evening having had a bottle and I just feel so selfish for not having given him a bottle earlier in the day.

I just don't know what to do. I've been to 4 breastfeeding clinics, seen a private lactation consultant twice and feel that there's nothing else anyone can do to help.

I feel so sorry for you. I don't know what advice to offer but you're not alone in your frustrations. I am so passionate about bf-ing but really don't think I can take any more right now, I am in a bit of a state myself. dd had her tongue tie corrected last week but things have not been right since. Our latch is still wrong (but seems to be fine whenever a lactation consultant watches us!! ) and she clicks when she drinks, taking in air. She's so windy and arches her back during feeds, with my nipple still clamped between her gums. My nipples are in such pain.

We have just spent 15 minutes draining both my boobs, only for her to puke up most of what she'd taken over me and the bedclothes. On top of that she's a 'snacker' and usually only feeds for 10 minutes at a time, I really have to 'fight' to wake her up for her to take any more or go onto the other boob after she's burped (and she's not easy to burp). She will often then only sleep for an hour before waking up screaming either in pain because of wind or in hunger. Therefore once she's settled, I only get to sleep for around 40 minutes at a time, day or night. And this is with her sleeping upright on me as she won't go down in her cot. She's not one of these textbook babies that sucks their fists or roots with their tongue when they're hungry: when she wants a feed she wakes up screaming. I then find it really hard to have a calm bonding bf experience with her.

I've just had enough and have left dh to sit with her. I keep telling dh that we need to start putting her on formula but I am roundly ignored. I don't know what to do any more. I feel like an awful mum.

I'm totally sleep deprived and I feel like I'm falling apart. I hope that it gets better soon. :(

Hi Anne - didn't want you to go unanswered, you have really been through the mill!

To me it sounds like you have done all the right things with seeking advice, so it must feel so frustrating for you.

My advice would be to not make any firm decisions until you have had a good rest and a bit of time to think. Have a think about your options:

• switching to formula completely: would you feel relief or regret? I am pro-breastfeeding, but not if it makes you so stressed. Happy mum = happy baby.

• expressing and bottle feeding expressed milk: can be a lot of work, but might give your nips a break while keeping up breast milk supply. You could look at re-latching once you feel better?

• persevering with breastfeeding: could nipple shields help? or shells between feeds. Might be worth giving a breastfeeding clinic/advisor one more try?

Whatever you decide, you should feel reassured that you are trying everything possible to get it working, and have done a lot more than many others would! Give yourself a hug and a cup of tea and don't beat yourself up about it.

Scuba - how old is your DD? Sounds like some of what you mention could be colic? If you think thats a possibility there are some tips to help, I'd be happy to share what worked for us.

anne, poor you, sounds like you're having an awful time. Don't really have any suggestions, but jusy an idea: have you tried feeding him ebm from a cup? That would give your nipples time to heal and he wouldn't get used to drinking from a bottle. Hope someone more knowledgeable comes along with better ideas.

scuba, sounds like your dd has reflux. Don't want to hijack anne's thread, will pm you. Might take a while ad I'm posting from phone while bf.

You need to do what is right for you and your boy. If breast feeding isn't working and you are getting stressed about about it then stop! You've done your best, some mums don't even bother. I remember sitting in bed in tears with the pain when my son was about 3 weeks old, I was really upset. I carried on through the pain and I'm sure it had an effect on him. My stress wasn't good for him.
The most important thing is a happy baby and happy mum. And that your boy is gaining weight. You'll have to express for a few days anyway if you stop so you'll have that milk for him. I mixed formular and breast milk for the first few days, just so he got used to it.

Don't beat yourself up, you're doing your best!!! My boy started formular at 5 months, just refused the breast one day, he started solids at 4 months. Ever since he's been on formular he's slept much better, his feeds are more consistant and I get a rest because OH can do some feeds!

Hope everything gets better for you soon :)

I EBF for 5 months and found it really tough. DS was not putting on weight- dropped from 98th-25th centile. I'm pleased I am so much happier now he's on formula (I'm down to 2 BFs a day and about to drop them too). I stuck BF out because I thought I should, but it didn't seem to make either of us happy- he seems a lot more content on formula and I am too.

It sounds like you are having such a rough time, if it's not working think about formula- at this stage he may take a bottle easier than if you try to introduce it at a later stage. Remember you've done really well. If you switch to formula don't feel guilty- I spent 2 weeks in tears feeling so guilty, that did no-one any good.

oh and it's your decision re formula not DH- he doesn't have to do the BF.

You probably don't want to hear it but BF never got easier for me, and I'm at 6 months now. Don't feel like you're a bad mum. You're not. If formula means that you're both more content and you're less stressed and able to enjoy motherhood that's the best all round isn't it?

Hi Anne

congratulations on persevering this far! I had a lot of latch/tongue tie/thrus/PAIN problems so stopped BFing DS at about 4 weeks. He's now 10 weeks and I have been exclusively expressing for him since then - always with the aim of trying him on the boob when he was a bit bigger. I won't lie, expressing is a lot of work, but it's been the right thing for me.

Throughout the last 6 weeks of expressing I have tried him back on the boob a few times a week and given him a full feed from both breasts. Although it is still not PAIN FREE feeding, it has been improving as he gets older.

As it turns out, expressing is still what suits me more than breastfeeding so we're sticking with that with just the occasional experimental feed (or time when I realise I have nothing ready for him and he's screaming the house down).

Maybe it's worth expressing to keep the supply up, let your nipples heal, then re-introduce your boob when you feel ready?

Or go formula. It's really not that evil!

If you really want to carry on breastfeeding then I think that droping the bottle's altogether would be a good plan, as baby sounds like he's trying to suck milk from you as if it's a bottle.

This doesn't mean not supplimenting at all if he's not taking enough milk from you. You can cup feed or use a supplimental feeding (effectivly a smal tube which you attach to your nipple's which milk is supplied down with BM or formula). But I think you would need some reall life help with this.

You've come so far and done a great job if you feel you can't carry on then you shouldn't feel bad about switch to formula.

National Breastfeeding Helpline
0300 100 0212

NCT Breastfeeding Helpline
0300 330 0771

La Leche League Helpline
0845 120 2918

Association of Breastfeeding Mothers
08444 122 949

Thanks for all your advice and support. I have bottle fed since last night and its been half and half EBM and formula. I'm just not expressing enough for him just to have EBM. My right boob feels so full though and I can't quite work out why nothing is coming out.

When I think about possibly giving up breastfeeding altogether it reduces me to tears. I don't really know why. I never thought I would feel this way about it. It does just feel like such a special thing to be able to do and the thought of not having milk in my boobs anymore is awful. Here I am in tears while I type this.

Whilst cup feeding might be an option, I think it would encourage the other thing DS does which is lick the boob like a lolly pop. I don't know how to get him to stop it.

I am not ready to make the decision to stop altogether so have been trying to express as much as I can today. I only get about 40-50mls though. I don't know why I am putting off making a decision about this. I guess we've been through so much to try and make this work it feels a bit like we've been defeated. I know he won't know any different but I feel like this is something we're just supposed to do.

I did put him on the boob today for a bit of one feed just after I'd pumped (about half way through so there was still something for him) but the areola still felt so raw. it did seem to be mainly the right side he's doing funny things to but the left is still sore.

I never thought it would be so hard, either to do it or make the decision to stop.

I feel like something is missing when I'm not putting him on the boob. It just doesn't feel right.

My other concern though is that his nappies are noticeably more wet when he has a bottle which just makes me wonder if I can ever actually give him what he needs so if I can get back to breastfeeding, it may be that I do need to give him a bottle or two each day.

I think for the moment I will try and keep my supply up as much as possible but combine that with formula if I need to. I'll keep putting him on the boob at least once every day I think. Although when I did it today he was very reluctant and I thought he was going to refuse it. He's never done that before. I suppose that will make the decision for me though if that happens.

I'll see what the next 24 hrs hold. I do hate the thought of not breastfeeding him for a couple of days but I know that if I don't let my nipples heal, there will not be aany breastfeeding at all.

I have bought the la leche book so will have a look through that and see if there is anything in there that can help.

Have you tried any of the helplines MigGril listed above? It is not too late to ring and they are trained both to give practical advice and talk through how you are feeling in all this.

Anne - have you tried vitamin E cream on your nipples? Meant to be a lifesaver....wayyy better than the stuff in the purple tube, just give them a quick wash before baby feeds though.

I've just spoken to some from la leche. She was helpful but it's quite hard to know what to suggest. She did feel that I shouldn't bottle feed at all for the mo in case there is an element of nipple confusion going on. I don't relish the thought of cup feeding at 2 in the morning though so she suggested trying to breastfeed at night and cup feed in the day. We also talked about supply issues.

I'll keep persevering for now. I actually put DS to the boob tonight on the side that feels hard and full and he did actually manage to clear it which is great. I had a bottle at the ready to finish the feed but with a bit of breast compression he seems to have got enough to tide him over for a bit. He wasn't quite due a feed but was distressed from wind so fed anyway.

Thanks for the suggestion of vitamin e cream. Will give that a go when I can get hold of some.

I really appreciate all the support. It's so good to know I can come on mumsnet and get so many words of encouragement day or night.

fantastic that he fed from you anne :) good luck tonight and well done reaching out for help

Anne - I know absolutely nothing about BF, but I did wonder when you said your DS wasn't "due a feed" whether he is on some sort of schedule and whether this is helping or hindering you.

Not on any kind of routine. It's just that he generally goes 3 hrs between feeds. If he seems hungry before that I'll feed him but you can usually pretty much set your clock by him.

I was hoping to set up the new light just now for tonight's feed but can't find the screwdriver to fit the light bulb.

Will give him a bottle for his next 2 feeds which gives my boobs just a bit more healing time and then will breastfeed his early morning feed. I'll just have to see how things feel in the morning

Anne74- sorry you're still having so many problems.

Agree with breatheslowly about the schedule. Don't worry about him being 'due' for a feed - just offer him the breast as often as you can (I know it's sore for you at the moment though). Good idea to try breast compressions too and don't forget to feed from one side, offer the second and then possibly back to the first side again.

Secondly, don't judge your milk supply and your ability to breastfeed by how quickly DS downs a bottle of formula (and then sleeps soundly for a long time). Babies often find a bottle easier to drink from and of course it is harder to digest, hence the long sleep afterwards.

Sounds like it was a good move to speak to a helpline. Sometimes it's just good to let someone else know your feelings isn't it, even if they don't have a solution.

Well done on carrying on- something in your post says to me that your heart is telling you to stick at it for a bit longer. Does that sound right?

Hope your night is good and you manage to get some rest.

Hi Anne, you mentioned you couldn't express from your boob even though it felt full - just wanted to mention that for some bizarre reason I don't know I just cannot express when my breasts are engorged. Normally I can get a full feed from one breast alone!! But when dd has gone 6+ hrs sleeping overnight and I am bursting and in pain and don't want to wake the babe up the pump does NOTHING! I have to let it drip out and squeeze and put the pump on low until I get a let down.

How have things gone today anne74?

So so. I decided to try bf all day and avoid the bottles but he has been so unsettled all day. Managed each feed and even some comfort sucking although it was getting pretty sore by the end of the day. He didn't sleep this afternoon and I think he got totally overtired but we just couldn't settle him. A combination of exhaustion, tummy pains and hunger I think. Although I do wonder if I'm a bit quick to assume he's not getting enough from me. He seemed to have a couple of really good feeds today where he seemed to be swallowing loads but he still didnt settle. We went to my in-laws though which is unfamiliar to him and I don't think that helped.

We ended up having to give him 50mls EBM tonight as we weren't sure what else to do.

I've expressed tonight but didn't get much. I've got DH on board with me tonight for the first time so I've decided to bottle feed DS tonight so that DH can do it and I can sleep. I will have to wake up DH but at least I can them go back to sleep.

I really want to carry on. I plan to pump after each feed tomorrow to try and boost supply and will breastfeed all feeds if I can.

It does get pretty stressful when I physically can't put him on the boob for comfort sucking and he won't
settle. I run out of options. I did have breast surgery 10 years ago so it is distinctly possible that my supply won't be 100% but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know.

I've read that double pumping is more efficient than single but I have trouble holding the funnels and operating the machine. Any tips?

One nipple has been bleeding today and DS vomited brown stuff tonight but I'm confident that it's boob blood. It's all just so frustrating. I'm still not convinced we're going to make it through but I really hope we can. I am going to go to a breastfeeding cafe on wed and I'll be seeing the HV on tues for DS 8 week check so will talk to her as well.

I do wonder if I'm fighting a losing battle but at least I'm putting up a fight!

Sorry for the ramble by the way!

Morning Anne74

Drat it, I just typed a long post and then pressed a randon key and it was gone!

Anyway, sounds like things are coming along.

Good idea to pump a lot and get him on to the breast whenever you can.

Can you have a babymoon? Can't remember if it's been suggested already or not. Bed +naked chest+rest+feed+feed+snuggle+food+drink+cuddles.

Don't know about the pump I'm sfraid but sure someone else will.

That's interesting about your breast surgery. Here is a website that may be useful.

Good idea to go to bfing cafe and hopefully your HV is knowledgeable about bfing and can give you good support.

I think you are great for persevering. Think of all the difficulties you've had in such a short space of time and see how far you've come.

Hi Anne,

My DS was also born 5 weeks prem with a tongue tie. To cut a long story short I have ended up exclusively pumping for 6 months and counting.
WRT hands fee pumping, I bought a hands fee bustier which makes life so much easier. I just turn on the pump and sit watching tv or doing stuff on my laptop www.expressyourselfmums.co.uk/details2.asp/ProductID/281/easy-expression-bustier.htm
In the meantime here's how to cobble together a handsfree thing with hairbands www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/hands-free-pumping.html
And here's a beginner's guide to pumping I found really useful forums.ivillage.com/t5/Roll-Calls-Introductions/Updated-Beginner-s-Guide-looking-for-input-and-any-additions/m-p/116687945#U116687945

Also, I did buy a Medela supplemental nursing system. I don't think I have the box and it may have been through the steriliser but I never actually tried to use it as it seemed so difficult. If you are thinking of using one I can send it to you. www.amazon.co.uk/Medela-SMS-Supplemental-Nursing-System/dp/B000W73YKY

I used one of these too titan and they are great for getting more milk in to the baby without having to use the bottle. Also,the baby is stimulating your breast at the same time as he gets the milk through the tube. They are a bit fiddly though but it did the job and once DS had put weight on, I didn't need to use it any more.

If your nipples are still bleeding, it sounds like the latch isn't still quite right (or it hasn't healed properly).

Maybe the jelonet gauze would aid healing or holding DS in the underarm hold may mean he gets a better latch.

You had thrush too right? Has that been sorted out now?

Hope your day is going well.

I had to get DH to operate the controls at first with the double pump. I then got so good at it, I could wedge one on with my forearm whilst holding the other with that hand, so I had a hand free for the controls.

Sounds like you did pretty good yesterday with an unsettled overtired baby! Well done!