Losing faith in my breastmilk aalready...

[Mahraih]

Is it possible that I just don't have that much milk? DS is PFB as you'll see from my monologue!

DS has lost 10% of his body weight in 4 days (he's now 5 days) - he feeds, but doesn't get a good suction going, despite having what an observing midwife said is a good latch. After BF he gets horrid wind (we think that's what it is), burping and passing wind multiple times but still in pain. He'll be writhing around for ages, sucking on his hands and screaming. I'm trying to feed every 2 hours at MW's advice - this morning he fed at 6.30am for 30 minutes, and after that either ignored the breast or only went for ten minutes or less.

Midwife suggested a breast pump yesterday - I can barely get a few drops out of it and have tried it after a shower, while BFing other breast, morning, nighttime, etc. It's an Avent, if that helps. I'll keep trying with it.

So this afternoon I cracked, got some formula and gave DS that, as he hadn't fed 'properly' in hours. The change was amazing - he was sucking consistently and deeply and afterwards there was no pain - he burped up a bit of formula and then had a nap!

If I don't have much milk, how do I tell? I'm not pleased FF but it was so nice to see DS satisfied. For example we have just had what I'd describe as a 'good' BF - 15 minutes of shallow, inconsistent sucking. DS now won't accept the breast again, mouth firmly closed.

WWYD in this situation? I want to keep trying to BF but can't bear DS losing weight and being unhappy. I will ask midwife about supplementing but would like to know from other mums - is this normal, would you perservere?

Thanks.

Don't worry about the amount you can pump, it's not a reliable indication of how much milk you have. Plenty of mums can't pump but can BF just fine.

I would talk to a BF counsellor, they are trained in detail about all kinds of BF obstacles whereas MW's training is more general.

Here are some contact details that you might find useful-

LLL helpline

NCT helpline

BFN helpline

ABM helpline

One of these charities is bound to have someone local to you that can help you out in more detail and support you until you get the hang.

Congratulations on the safe arrival of your DS!

Don't lose faith, at 5 days your milk probably hasn't come in yet. Your supply certainly won't be fully established yet.

Have a babymoon - you and baby back to bed for a couple of days doing lots of skin to skin so baby can latch on to feed whenever he wants to. Make sure you have lots of snacks and fluids for you - dehydration won't help your supply.

For the tummyache, try massaging baby's tummy in a clockwise direction to aid digestion. holding baby's ankles and gently moving legs (with knees bent) in a clockwise direction should help to relieve stomach pains too. Beware - these methods can encourage baby to poo so make sure baby's wearing a nappy!

Not being judgeypants about supplementing with formula, just be aware that it will interfere with your supply. Better to put baby to breast. If you want to continue to breastfeed but feel baby needs formula "top ups" I'd recommend using a nursing supplementer (Medela do them) which encourages baby to suckle from you whilst having formula. This helps to avoid nipple confusion and helps you to establish your supply.

Don't worry about expressing. Expressing is not in any way a reliable indicator of supply. I've been exclusively BFing my DD and only managed to get decent amounts of milk when expressing at about 14 weeks.

Contact your midwife / local Surestart centre / GP surgery and find out when your local breastfeeding group meets. I found the breastfeding group at my local Surestart invaluable in the first few weeks with DD.

Good luck and keep the faith!

Get specialist advice on feeding - as specialist as you can get. IME most MWs don't know much at all about bfing issues. Seeing an infant feeding specialist (which a few MWs are) is hugely different - maybe ask if they have one in your MW team?

Positioning affects the efficiency of feeds as well as latch - if the baby's chin isn't well into the breast they may not get enough fattier milk.

5 days is very early - your milk supply could still be coming in and the only way to encourage it is to empty your breasts as often as possible.

I couldn't express almost anything at this point. I supplemented with formula and DD slept but that isn't because F is better but because from what I have read, they process it more slowly. I wouldn't tell you not to supplement (helped us loads in the first few days) but don't mistrust your milk. It will come in and you will be amazed at the difference. It was SUCH a relief.

Thanks for your responses!

I'm going to give one of the helplines a call and see if they have any words of advice, or just reassurance :) thanks for the numbers eaurouge

QueenofProcrastination - I like the idea of a babymoon. I felt brilliant after the birth so have been running around quite a bit. I'm going to stick at home for the next couple of days and just feed. We've done the clockiwise rubbing, windmilling legs, but not moving both legs together so will give that a go too.

MW coming back again tomorrow - I'll ask if they have a specialist, and also seek out a breasfeeding group.

I feel a bit better now, especially if expressing isn't an indication of the actual amount of milk :)

Oh, and I'll try not to let the formula become a habit, just an emergency precaution.

Feed him whenever he cries, or roots, at 5 days I wouldn't try to keep him going 2 hours. At this stage, he'll want to feed a lot, and this will get your supply up. If he's writhing around sucking his hands, I would say this is a sign of hunger rather than pain.
I would ditch the pump and just make yourself comfy and feed him as much as you can.

Congratulations btw xx

Sorry, that came out that you are leaving him hungry. All I meant was that at this stage, there won't be much milk and he'll want to feed a lot, which in turn will increase your supply.

I wouldn't trust your mw's opinion on bfing if she is suggesting you keep him going two hours between feeds, as this is bollocks, and IMO the advice that most likely leaves mothers feeling like they don't have enough milk, as boobs need lots of suckling to produce the milk in the first place.

Sorry, rant over :o

I second the babymoon idea! There's nothing like lots of skin to skin and resting together:)

It does sound as if a little bit of help could be had with the latch. Sometimes just a few small adjustments make the world of difference. Seek out some expert BF advice, unfortunately MWs just don't have that much training in BF.

Just to reassure you about the illusion of BF not seeming to satisfy LO as much as FF. BF is a small meal which is just enough to satisfy you, but you will need to eat again soon. FF is like a Christmas dinner, really fills you up and you can't eat again for ages afterwards!

Those early weeks are tough, but keep feeding and, most importantly, enjoy your baby x

In the next day or 2 your milk will come in & you may fitting a whole bra just round one boob while milk pours out ( or is that just me ) and you'll wonder what you worried about.

Perhaps ask that the MW checks him for tongue-tie and insist that she feel underneath his tongue when checking.

I've read quite a few threads on here lately where the mum has been told that the latch was fine but continued to have trouble an ld it turned out to be undiagnosed tongue-tie.

It is such a quick and simple thing to have sorted out too so it would be a pity to miss it.

mahraih how was your birth? Did you have an IV in labour?

It's way too early to be running around (although I understand the temptation!). Wonderful that you're feeling well but you need to spend time getting to know your little one :) and he needs his mummy - pretty much all the time for now.

The "pain" you describe sound like they may be feeding cues. He could well just want to stay next to you, snuggled up and cosy, either suckling or not. If you can strip him down to his nappy and snuggle him on your bare chest (under a blanket if you need to!!), this will trigger your make-milk hormones and he will probably be much happier. From his perspective his whole world has just been torn in two and the only thing he knows is you.

When you say he doesn't get a good suction going, what's happening?

Inconsistent sucking is perfect. Your breast will let down a release of milk, which he will allow to fill his mouth and swallow, then he will suck-suck to get more, stop, wait, and so on. The bottle, though, is just the same throughout the feed so that's why it seems regular.

Ditch the pump. It means nothing. Nada. It will stress you, probably bruise your nipples and take time away from snuggle time which is far more important.

You have time tonight to call the helplines and I highly recommend you do so just to talk it through before tonight.

Keep us updated :)

Ho just wanted to add my support have faith that you CAN do it and be stubborn!! Being stubborn is what got me through as dd also lost a lot of weight, she was poorly - spent her 1st wk in scbu and I was then poorly in hospital 2 wks later but I wanted to bf and was bloody minded about it! Agree with all the above comments, I had to combination feed at times when dd was under 10 wks but was lucky that dd didn't seem to mind bottle or breast - not all babies are that flexible.

Keep eating and drinking loads for me I felt it helped and it takes a newborn at least 6 wks to learn how to effectivley feed (thats what they told me anyway!) and believe me after 6-7 wks it does start to get eaiser and you will be so pleased you didn't give up and have all that faffing around with bottles!!!

Good luck and congrats on the birth of your son! XxX

The midwife who told me every two hours was revising it down from every four hours, which is what the midwife at Kings told me! Luckily I didn't listen to her. Good to know they're giving out accurate information ... I'll ask MW about tongue tie just in case.

Since posting, DS has actually been feeding better. It's as if the FF has given him some energy . He's been feeding for 15 -20 minutes, every hour and pretty much on the hour. I have no idea why the change! He's driving it and letting me know when he's hungry, which is a new phenomenon, and very useful. I've adjusted his position which seems to have helped with the swallowing - his chin is further in, and the swallowing seems deeper :) Hopefully this will continue.

organiccarrotcake, The birth was fine, I came out feeling better than when I was pregnant. I had an epidural which helped of course! When I say running around, I don't mean mad socialising or rushing about - I just can't be cooped up all day so I'll pop to rhe library or go and buy milk - both short journies but they keep me sane! I'll spend more time in bed from now on though.

I've been doing skin-to-skin while feeding, but I'll do it inbetween as much as possible too, good tip. When I said he doesn't get good suction, it's just rather weak, as if he's not really getting in there... its improved now we'ce changed position a bit.

Ditching the pump and thank you for the advice, ladies! It is so much appreciated.

Yay !! Your milk may have come in.

I was told 4 hours is the maximum a newborn should go really, so to wake up DD after that long. But feeding should be more frequent than that - 4 hourly gaps shouldn't be something to aim for.

Ijust wanted to add support to the idea of a babymoon - 24 hours in bed with a book, the baby, your phone, the remote control and a huge box of chocolates will do wonders for both of you!

Oh, and I was one of those irritating people who found bf easy, exclusively bf both of mine to 6 months, then fed dd until she was nearly 3 and ds until he was nearly 18 months. But I could never express more than a drop or two. I tried until I cried, but I just couldn't do it, wwhatever sort of pump I used. So do;t worry about that!

Mummyberryjuice - if so, brilliant timing, I was contemplating just feeding him lard to get the weight back up!

The midwife said that I should feed him every four hours, no mention of that being a maximum. I imagine that's what she meant however, it was very busy and she was rushing.

Feeling much more positive about it all now, even if it gets bumpy again it seems to do that for most people. He'll be weighed again on Friday, and we'll go from there...

"every four hours, which is what the midwife at Kings told me" sweet Jesus. :( :( What appalling advice :(

Sounds like things are really improving! Fantastic news!

I guess you will have had a drip as you had an epidural, which will increase your baby's birth weight to higher than it would have been - which he then wees out and it looks like he's lost more weight than he has.

Nothing wrong with nipping out for milk :). All good stuff but just make sure you get the balance right.

You sound like you're doing brilliantly. Well done!

Mahraih, I've just read the thread and wanted to add my encouragement. It sounds like you've turned a corner.

Newborns can feed constantly at first, he's only little! Sadly a lot of midwives still come out with stuff about timing feeds, but the current advice is to follow your baby's cues, feed as much as possible and set up home on the sofa with cake and the remote control.

Good luck for the weighing on Friday.

Hi op, I recognise you from our overdue thread!! Pfb, dd1 was born last fri! V impressed w your activity levels - I've not even got dressed yet!

Having similar probs. Was going to go for ff but will give bf another day. Having probs getting the latch right - frustrated baby and agonising nipples.

Baby sleeps loads - mw said every 4 hrs was ok and to wake her up for that. There is so much conflicting advice it makes me think sod it, a bottle will be easier.

Milk is in - leaking everywhere.

Mw coming for 5 day check later, will see what she advises... And learn yet another way to not quite latch on a baby. At least dc1 will be weighed so can see if my efforts are working at all.

I sound really moany, don't I? I actually feel so so happy - maybe cos tesco and the ff aisle are open

Hello cookingfat! You don't sound moany, you sound like a knackered new mother Is there a LLL group near you that can help you out? groups. You are more likely to get accurate info there than from a MW. My MW is lovely but her BF knowledge is fairly limited. Some of them have quite old-fashioned ideas too.

There's some good info here too.

Who is telling mothers that 4 hourly bf is ok?

This is seriously risky advice.

Babies need to be cared for snuggled up to mum with no scheduled feeding at all in the first days/weeks - most mothers don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting bf underway if they are only feeding 6 x in 24 hours. A baby who's next to his mum day and night is likely to feed a lot, with irregular gaps between feeds when he dozes.

Trouble is, many women (and midwives) judge the effectiveness of a bf by how wilingly the baby goes down to sleep in a crib, and for how long he sleeps like that. When this doesnt happen it's assumed the baby needs formula.

With that mindset, it's likely that breastfeeding is going to be difficult :(

Hi cookingfat, congratulations on your DD, that's excellent! I hope things are a bit better since you posted - have you seen the midwife yet? Please DON'T listen to the midwife who said every 4 hours - I've been doing some (amateur) research on it, and as tiktok said, feeding every 4 hours makes it a lot less likely that you will successfully breasfeed - apparently it's linked to women believing they don't have 'enough milk' because the body isn't encouraged to produce more. I called LLL (link at top of thread) and they were really lovely, try them!

Update on our situation: I am now spending every morning religiously in bed/on sofa with baby, and am whipping the breast out at any opportunity. He feeds on average every 1 - 2 hours, for as long as he e wants. I'm FF once per day in the mid-afternoon as if I don't, I don't seem to have enough to do night feeds. Not ideal, but it's a compromise I can live with, as baby is getting 99% of his nutrition from BF.

MW came today and he has gained! He is now 100g off his birth weight and we're aiming to make that back by Tuesday :)

4 hours! Gosh we're only down to that kind of gap between feeds now my DD is nearly 6 months! She's been sleeping 8-12 hours through the night since 6 weeks old but in the day time she still can't go more than 3-4 hours maximum without a feed. Newborn to around 3 weeks she fed more or less every hour! The more frequently you feed your baby the better your supply will be, so just offer the breast more frequently.