Advice from a pro please? New second time mum getting stuck expressing full time again!

[fastasleep]

This is my second baby and my second baby with a low birth weight and jaundice, she won't wake up for feeds and only today started attempting latching on (4 days post birth) so I'm stuck expressing 3 hourly and giving it via bottle as syringes and cups were making her choke horribly...

There is the distinct possibility that I'm going to get stuck expressing full time again, which I did for 9 months last time, only problem is (apart from the sheer joy of it lol) I have a 19 month old...

I was wondering - I need to do a pump 6-8 times a day for like 40 mins right? Would it be ok to do more at night than in the day? Would that screw things up? If I did a pump as soon as DS went to bed at 8, then at about 11, then about 3, then 6 before he gets up... that leaves three to do in the daytime... how far should I leave in between them in the day? Does it really matter? Last time I stuck very strictly to a 2 hourly daytime regime, just can't do it this time..

Any help would be great, sorry for the length and dunno when I'll get chance to come and check this!

Thanks!!

I would try and express at least 3 hourly if you can Fastasleep throughout the day. Regular expressing would be better than expressing mainly at night. It is the regular emptying of the breast that stimulates milk production. Night expressings are important too in the early weeks so I would express at least once during the night.
The most important thing though is to have her in skin-to-skin contact as much as possible. If she is starting to latch but falling asleep then switch feed ie frequently swap sides to keep her awake. She will feed better when she is skin-to-skin - can't emphasise it enough.
You also need assistance with 19 month old. Have you someone around who can take care him while you concentrate on this for the next few days. If she is starting to latch then you may well crack the feeding without having to resort to expressing.
Also no need to express for 40 mins at a time when you do. Make sure you keep switching breasts when the milk flow slows after each letdown. When expressing on one breast you let down milk in the other. Switching sides reduces the total length of time expressing.
When giving milk by bottle, encourage her to put her tongue out before putting the teat in her mouth. That will make her mimic getting her tongue in the right position for breastfeeding. If she is sucking from a bottle she should be able to suck from the breast. It will be well worth having your toddler entertained by someone else for the next few days while you concentrate on getting her on the breast. It can be harder to get a baby to learn breastfeeding once they have learnt to bottle feed. Good luck.

Thanks mears she hasn't latched on at all since yesterday afternoon, and that was the first time that day... can't even get my breast within an inch of her mouth most of the time as she screams and scrabbles like a mad thing, then the rest of the time the jaundice has made her so sleepy she won't wake for it... it's taking 30 minutes to get a 40ml bottle of EBM down her too... I set up an expressing routine in the hope that I can space the times around taking DS out sometimes, maybe ...wah!! Why do I always have to make it hard for myself, I just can't accept defeat and give her the dreaded formula... I'd rather be stressed to the enth degree for the next however many months with expressing and looking after the pair of them... I'm mad obviously!

Sorry to hear that fastasleep

Definately make the time to spned it skin-to-skin so that she knows the breast is a nice place to be. If she feels she is being forced to breastfeed then she may well resist.

Have you tried feeding in the bath? That can be really successful. Just bath with her and you may find that she starts to root for the breast.

Have you contacted a breast feeding cousellor? Hopefully you will be able to get her to feed directly. It is still early days though I realise you have been down this road before.

Not really a pro fastasleep but had the same problem with my DD, jaundice very sleepy baby, taken back into hospital for phototherapy, midwives threatening tube feeding/formula so I was expressing for her. I was so depressed with the feeding then expressing cycle and it seemed to take ages to get 20mls.

What I did was perservere, as mears said loads of skin to skin contact, snuggled her against boob as soon as she woke, she would start off sucking then I would give her the EBM. Always started with boob first though. She gradually got the hang of it and the EBM wasn't needed. Best of luck I know how hard it is.

She's not latching, I've given up trying now 9 days in ... she'd only latched on three times ever though, for a tiny amount of time so it was really just getting us down..

Went to see a breastfeeding counsellor - she shoved a bottle of my EBM in her mouth after saying 'oh she looks too sleepy' and said to just express until she wasn't 'too sleepy' for feeds and then later on we could try and 'tease her back on' I know from experience that that just doesn't work! So I'm expressing again.. feeling very strange with hormones etc, sometimes I think I'm doing the right thing and then suddenly start feeling really guilty and wondering if I'm doing something really stupid... argh!!

Sigh I'm feeling really weird and confused and weepy all the time which is really not helping things!! Why do I feel so poo when she's getting all my milk anyway?!

If I started trying again would there be any chance of her doing it before I go mad?

Ok thrid and final post (I know, I'm never on and then 3 at once!) if I do start trying again how do I get around expressing times? I mean if she gets hungry half way through an express or straight after... will she still latch on if there's nothing there? Should I stick to my pumping schedule? She feeds really sporadically so I'm worried that if I pump after every attempt that my supply would just disappear... I don't know what to dooooo... poo why can't I just like formula!!

FA, can you try seeing a different bfeeding counsellor? The one you saw wasn't much cop by the sound of it Which organisation did they work for? Sounds like they'd like to know how "helpful" she was!

As for trying to get her to feed and expressing times - what kind of pump are you using? I used to be able to pump and feed, but that was when DS was much better at feeding, so appreciate that's probably not the way forward for you!

Try ringing a different bfeeding support line maybe?

When's her calmest time of day? Try skin to skin then and see if she'll latch? No good with a toddler running round though - can you do this after DS is in bed? Does giving her a bath calm her down? Or a massage? Good luck with it - you're doing brilliantly to be expressing for her!

She was the counsellor for the hospital, I saw her when DD was there about her jaundice... I just feel so weird and mixed up I don't know what to do with myself lol.... expressing's not that bad really, I just feel guilty about it for some reason and I feel terrified of going out and having to do it - people always look at you like you're a total weirdo, even other mums.. and in pubs and cafes and stuff you're sort of forced to hide in the toilet to do it and even then someone walks in and says 'what's that really weird noise?!' or 'someone's been in here for half an hour!' ... oh the joy... I think I just need to get settled into doing whatever it is I decide to do, then I'll feel much better...

(I can't believe I don't dare show my face at the toddler group I've been going to since DS was 8 months old! All I can think of is the woman who runs it with 5 breastfed children and I want to hide in bed!)

Hi Fastasleep. I just wanted you to know how much I admire you for continuing with the breast milk (fwiw). I tried breastfeeding for 10 days and gave up because I didn't get the support I needed. The first midwife who came round to see me postnatally refused to send the b/f counsellor round because she thought I was doing it right. It turns out that I was doing it all wrong but by the time I got the help I needed it was too late and I was in so much pain every time I fed dd I gave up. I still feel guilty 6 months on whenever I hear the word 'breastfeeding'.

I agree with the others that you should get a different b/f counsellor round to help you if you want to continue. It sounds like you're really committed and the counsellor may know a way to train your dd to latch on (as mine did).

Good luck.

FA, you know you can express because you did it longterm for DS. But you don't know in the same way that you can breastfeed - so you need some help from someone who can show you how to do it. Please ring one of the breastfeeding counselling lines - learning to feed a baby can be really hard. You were worried about her when she was born and the important thing was getting bmilk into her as she was jaundiced and sleepy, but now she's a bit bigger, you can both concentrate on learning to breastfeed.

As for expressing out and about - I have nothing but admiration for you for doing that longterm for DS - I did it several times a week when I was at work for DS, but you - wow! I'm in awe!

been through it twice - for a month with DS1 - who then figured it out and fed directly until 12 months, and once with twins - who never did - expressed for 9 months.

Express every 3-4 hours - through the night as well, max of about 20 mins. Massage before and during. Double pump if possible - you can hire pumps per month from the NCT if needed (don't have to be a member). Top up with formula if needed - for me usually in mid evening - never had enough expressed to cover the feeding frenzy time of early evening.

As they get older you can drop pumping sessions just as you would drop feeds.

As far as feeding driectly - just keep trying, and try not to get angry and stressed (I did and it didn't help !). LOts of skin to skin.

Once the jaundice goes you should make better progress with feeding directly.

With DS1 I conned him into direct feeding by putting the avent teat full of milk over mine and let him suck on, sometimes it worked and when empty he would then suck away, other he hated it, others he actually would take my nipple directly after the milk ran out of the teat. Took about amonth before I got him on properly, and then I fed and topped up with anything I had alreaady expressed after feeding.

Stick with it - it may suddenly get easier. If not - well - you gave it a good try - don't beat yourself up.