Everyone telling me to introduce formula but I don't want to ... help

[CountBapula]

BEFORE I BEGIN I have absolutely nothing against formula feeding and believe it is a woman's choice how to feed her baby.

DS is 17 weeks today and EBF. He has fed well since birth, latched on immediately, and is putting on weight (born on 75th centile, dropped down to 9th which he has followed since he was a couple of weeks old). Seems v happy and satisfied after feeds - the smiles I get are incredible, just beautiful.

However, he has always been EXTREMELY alert and wakeful - a real sleep fighter, very unsettled, prone to overtired screaming etc. It is a constant battle to ensure he gets enough rest otherwise he quickly gets hysterical.

At around 12 weeks things started to improve and we got a bedtime routine going etc so we got our evenings back and only had one or two night wakings between 11 and 6/7ish. Then boom! He hit 15 weeks and the 4-month sleep regression kicked in. He has been waking every 1-2 hours for nearly two weeks now and I am starting to fall apart with exhaustion. It's not just the night wakings, it's also wrestling him to sleep 4 or 5 times during the day to avoid total meltdown.

Everyone thinks I need to get a break and at least skip one of the feeds so I can get more than an hour's sleep in a row. I've tried expressing but it takes 3 days of concerted pumping to scrape together enough for one feed and I just don't have the time or energy with such a high-maintenance baby. So my DH (who is wonderful and gets up in the night to rock DS back to sleep even though he has work the next day) is keen to introduce formula for the 10pm-ish feed so I don't totally knacker myself out.

My worry is I've never been that confident about my milk supply. I've never leaked, don't even know what let-down is because I never feel anything apart from DS sucking, and have only got engorged once or twice if DS has miraculously slept for more than 5 hours on the trot. I didn't even notice my milk coming in. So, coupled with the difficulty expressing (which I know is no indication of what baby is getting, but still) I'm guessing I'm not one of those women who make buckets and buckets of milk. Seem to have enough for DS but that's it.

So my main worry is that if I mix feed my supply will dwindle. If there is ANY risk that this could cause me to have to stop BFing I don't feel I can chance it. Emotional reasons aside (though just the thought of not BFing makes me v tearful - I just love feeding my baby so much), DS is so unsettled that often the boob is the only thing that can comfort him (he won't take a dummy and is too much of a fidget to be calmed by mere cuddling). So even in practical terms, it doesn't seem like a risk worth taking.

But something's got to give as I feel like I might be on the verge of PND (god, am crying typing this).

Can someone advise on whether I'd be likely to run into supply issues if DH did give him the odd shot of formula at bedtime? Am I just getting upset about nothing? I was breastfed until I was 2, it's very much the done thing in my family, and I did so want to BF DS for as long as possible.

Sorry for long rant :(

I started to give my DD a bottle before bedtime because otherwise I was sat feeding her for over an hour and she was waking every few hours to feed in the night. I hate to say it but it did really help, she started sleeping through 7.30-7 and only waking once for a feed.

But then chicken pox hit and now she's refusing a bottle and my nights have gone to shit again, that's another story though really.

I think a night time bottle may give you the break you need, but is only something you should explore further if you would be fully comfortable with it. At the end of the day it's your baby and you need to feed him how you feel is right.

I'm sorry you're feeling so crap, I am also at this point today of exhaustion and will I ever sleep again. It's crap, I'm just trying to hold the faith that it will sort itself out and tomorrow will be a better day.

Oh and my baby is also a complete fidget who NEVER cuddles. My mum holds her and says stuff like 'Why can't I cuddle her like a normal baby'. Thanks mum. She also bitchily said today 'My babies always slept through the night' and when I asked her how she said 'Well I'm just a good mummy'. Again, thanks mum.

Its impossible to say if it will help or not. Some babies, like above, start sleeping brilliantly with a bedtime bottle, others show no difference or get worse.

Bottle feeding will affect your supply, but IMO if you are feeding every two hours for the rest of the time it shouldn't be a problem.

There is the whole "virgin gut" aspect to consider too.

Please try and go to a local bf support group or please please phone la leche league for proper advice!

My son was always always feeding and I often felt delirious and my breasts felt empty but they were not, he was a good weight and fed a lot thats all. It was just hard for me and I too did not want to,or ever did, give a bottle

Don't be pressured into doing something you dont want - you are still, believe it or not, in the early days of bf! It WILL get better! But I do think you should talk to an experienced bf counsellor as they are fabulous and unbiased and will really help! they can tell you of a local support group too to see someone face to face

please let me know how you get on and good luck x

I doubt it would affect your supply - your body wil re-adjust to accommodate the fact you are giving one less feed a day. Don't worry about not leaking/being engorged, I have been BF DD2 for 7 months and very rarely do I see even a drop of my own milk or feel 'full' but she seems to be surviving on it, I consider myself one of the lucky ones not to be forever spurting milk everywhere

About the sleep fighting, how are you getting him to sleep? Will he not sleep duing the day in the buggy/carseat/sling? Or with you? While DD1 is having her daytime nap I often lie down in my bed with DD2 and feed her while having a little doze, it keeps me going for the rest of the day!

At nightime could you bring him in with you? I had just finally managed to get DD2 sleeping in her own cot when teething struck a month or so ago and she started waking every 2 hours. The exhaustion was killing me so I started bringing her in with me when she woke up the first time and co-sleeping. Now that things have settled down she is back in her cot again. Don't be scared of co-sleeping as a short term solution.

Give him formula if you want to, but more importantly make sure you are getting enough rest yourself during the day and don't try to be supermum!

Yes, defo get to an LLL meeting or similar. You will be able to get the information you need to make your decision.

The amount you express is not a good indication of how much milk you are making- lots of women EBF but have trouble expressing. Your DS is much better at getting milk out than a pump

Here is a list of local LLL groups.

Have to say someone I know really resisted formula, tried to express but gave in and is now very happy giving her 5 month old a bottle last thing in the evening. I never expressed an opinion and was actually really hoping she'd get through expressing/BF and not use formula. But looking at her so happy (and awake) now I'm very pleased for her. I've got no experience myself as I EFF DS so no comment from me personally.

theresapotatoundermysink - Baby who sleeps through the night = good baby, not mummy. My baby slept through the night (12 hours) from 6 weeks and even though I did loads to ensure that happened, I know I was just lucky to have a very good baby and nothing more.

Your situation feels very similar to mine - DS2 is now 5 months and is still very high maintenance. He also has a heart defect which meant an operation and two weeks in hospital when he was tiny. He is very easily overstimulated and if I don't catch his sleep window it takes forever to get him to nap. We did introduce a 10pm bottle (i'd just been diagnosed with PND and was utterly exhausted as also have DS1 to look after). It didn't seem to affect my supply (I think he was feeding so frequently anyway!). I'm feeling better now, he's sleeping a bit better and seems to have chilled a bit more, and we haven't given him a bottle for at least a couple of weeks now.

I could have written that post at 17 weeks with DS2 (he's now 9 months old) (although didn't have a daytime sleep fighting baby). I also never really leaked or felt I had loads of milk. I continued until about 21 weeks and I introduced bedtime formula. Was totally exhausted etc etc. I posted on here and everyone day 4 month sleep regression... but it wasn't a growth spurt as it just went on and on.

My decision was made easier because I was going back to work at 25 weeks and planned to stop BFing then so by 21 weeks didn't really mind about reducing supply too much.

I found that he drank a bottle at 10pm (after a breastfeed) and then did a 6 hour stretch until around 4am. I had loads of milk then and that was enough to keep him going until 7am, so only one night waking rather than 3-4. Also I BF at 10pm and went to bed, DH gave the bottle and settled him. At 26 weeks he was on 3 bottles a day plus 3 breastfeeds plus solids and slept 10pm-7am.

We were both much happier and I don't think it really affected supply as he only got it after a breastfeed (I offered "4" sides IYSWIM), and I used a newborn teat so he had to work quite hard for it. But I did cut down BFing at 25 weeks and totally stopped at 7.5 months.

The problem is that some babies prefer the bottle so resist the breast once they have had a bottle. My DS1 was like that.

Sorry probably not much help.

I could have written your post myself. Am in exactly the same boat other than he's never really breastfed well. He is 19 weeks today- we haven't slept in 3 weeks. Tonight (infact in an hour) my husband will (attempt to) give his first bottle of formula. I feel a mix of guilt, but I am exhausted, my boobs can't keep up with his demands and above all I just want a bloody break. I think I will only feel relief if he takes the bottle tonight (although am unconfident to be honest). good luck with wahtever you decide. x

Thank you all so much for your advice/sharing your experiences. I knew MN would come up trumps!

Great idea to see bf counsellor - hadn't thought of that. There's one in my area that does home visits so will see if I can get an appointment soon.

theresapotato (great name) - at your mum. Mine does the opposite - constantly reminds me that my brother and I were screamy, non-sleeping babies ... hope your DD gets better soon.

putthekettleon - he sometimes sleeps in pram but not always by any means. Yesterday it took him an hour to fall asleep in there! He won't sleep in the car either. I swaddle him, put white noise on and shh/pat him/rock him in a darkened room then try and put him in his cot. It is just as hard to settle him in our bed as in his cot so might as well put him in cot IYSWIM. He used to feed with me lying down but now he wriggles, bobs on and off, gets frustrated and starts crying so co-sleeping doesn't really help us unfortunately.

nearlymum - could you let me know how it goes with the formula tonight?

Thanks all for your posts - really helpful.

you might also find some support/suggestions by visiting cry-sis www.cry-sis.org.uk/

i bfed for 22 months. ds was dary intolerant. he went from 50th centile to 2nd centile and everyone said he should be on formula. he absolutely wouldn't take a bottle, wasn't good eater of solids til ten months either.

sleep was very much as you described and en though latch was good etc i could never manage to get anything from expressing.

;so what i'm trying to say is that your situation sounds normal, albeit exhausting for you!

Can I just add that I was in the exact same position as you, baby waking every hour or so to feed. I introduced a bedtime bottle and then it all went pear shaped, after having the bottle he didn't want the breast any more. My let down was too slow and I think it frustrated him so I ended up having to wean him off the breast completely, just to warn you. The plus side is he does sleep now! But I miss the breast feeding. Hwever I did mix feed my daughter very successfully for 6 months.

countbapula brill about the bfing cllr, try and get her to come and see you - but also ask about any local bfing clinics/cafes that might be nearby. depending on where you are there should be a fair few around (meaning you get help asap)
Fwiw - your breasts actually shouldn't technically ever feel engorged. engorgement would indicate you aren't using up your milk. so worry not about the full breasts thing - they should be quite soft, really. it sounds like you are doing a FAB job, tbh.
cookiemakes good point about virgin gut etc - there are things to consider about introducing formula. what it definitely doesn't guarantee is better sleep. it might. but equally, it might not.
Try and get yourself to a group/bfing cafe - you'll meet lots of people who can help, people who understand, and people who will sympathise.
the tiredness does get better - can you include your husband in other things so that he feels like he's helping? sometimes i think they can feel a bit helpless when they see you feeding all the time and can't help. if that makes any sense....

and above all - can you rest a bit more? are you doing too much? ( i definitely do. which is why i'm asking. sorry)

right. i'm waffling. sorry. hope some of it helps?

My DD was just like that,I didn't try a bottle,I carried on with breastfeeding,but she did see a cranial osteopath which helped at the time with the hyper, overtired and overstimulated thing.She does still have a tendency to get hyper when she's tired,she's six now,and we still have to catch the bedtime window or it takes her much longer to drop off.So it is obviously just her personality.I didn't feel a let-down either by the way,but I fed both my dds successfully,in fact dd2 is still bf at three,so clearly my supply is fine!

OK. Introduced bottle of formula before bed last night (he is 19 weeks to the day). He took it all. My husband did it and it went well. However he finished the bottle and my husband settled him down. In my opinion he needed another bottle again as he always takes a hell of a lot at this feed. Anyway, he woke at 10, 11, 1, 3.30 to feed and then woke at 6.30 put him i bed with me and he slept till 8. My husband thinks that last night was an improvement. i'm not convinced. However I don't think he had enough formula at his bed feed (only 200ml) and as I say he always usually has big feed at this time of day.

SO in short, I don't really know whether things were better or worse as a result of introducing formula. I will keep you updated though. I was in tears when husband was giving him the formula but deep down I know it's the right thing for us. He's always fed so badly from me dropping from 98th-25th centile. With both his feeding and sleeping so bad something had to change, and I'm glad I've done something. Even if it doesn't work, it was worth a go!!

Oh- and he's fed throughout the night and day happy from me.

I've been combination feeding for about 10 weeks plus after baby went from 75th to 9th centile by 6 weeks. I believe I'm feeding her no more or less than before, so long as you BF first and baby empties you I think you will be OK. The problems are when baby comes to prefer the bottle - you are a bit stuffed then, but that hasn't happened to me. The screaming I used to have for her has not happened since - I now know she was hungry and I definitely had a supply issue (she also had a feeding issue, they went hand in hand really)

As heartbreaking as it was to stop EBF (and I cried about this until recently) it was more to seem my 75th centile baby go down and down and length wise stay on the 75th line (at one point she looked like a developing nation undernourished baby it was awful). I have seen her go to about the 60th line at her 3 month growth spurt she looks gorgeous for it.

I've found this emotionally very difficult too but at least I'm maintaining some BF and that special closeness and I'm glad for it.

BTW sleep wise I think I have the same challenges as anyone, good nights/patches and bad ones!

We bf all day with a formula feed before bed and ive not noticed any effect on supply. I did start with the fenugreek tabs as 'insurance' tho.
Im like you, breasts dont leak much if ever and only feel 'full' if we manage more than 5 hrs sleep but she seems to get plenty of milk out and is growing well.
Maybe im awful but I need a minimum amount of sleep to function, particuarly with a dh on shifts, and i think the odd ff is better than constant exhaustion
Hope you find something that helps you tho, no sleep is awful
Excuse typing, wiggly baby on knee

FWIW 200ml seems quite alot for one feed. Afaik that's somewhere between 20-25% of what he'd have in a day normally. Theres a limit to how much they can fit in before the feed gets vomited up.

Thanks again all - no closer to deciding but feel a bit better today. DH took the day off and I went and got my hair done while DH took DS for a walk. A small thing but gave me a bit of a lift, and the first real time away from DS since he was born.

nearlymum, good to hear last night was a (partial) success. Hope things improve.

I'm inclined to tough it out still and see if things improve, but tend to change my mind at 3am! (And 4am ... And 5am ... )

CountBapula, it sounds like you want to stick it out, so I think you should if that's your gut. And who knows, a bottle of formula may not even be a help.

Thanks theresapotato. I'll see how it goes. Hope things get better for you soon.

Im not sure formula would make your DS sleep any better unless your DH. Was giving it at night to allow you extra sleep instead of feeding. My DD is BF, eats solid food like a horse and STILL gets up in the night! I think it's just how some babies are. She was also a terrible sleep fighter until very recently.
Anyway, I doubt one bottle of formula a day will affect your supply, you make how much the baby needs so you would still make enough to give DS the rest of his feeds during the day. It would just be the same as skipping a feed at night.
I too had trouble expressing more than 1oz of milk at a time, it doesn't necessarily mean you aren't making enough milk for the baby.
Another option would be to co-sleep with your DS and let him feed while you sleep or even feed him lying down in bed. This is what I ended up doing with DD and wish I had started doing it sooner!

Have you tried a medela electric pump? I have never managed to express with the other 3 dc but can pump quite well for dd with this and it doesn't take ages either. I got one off eBay for about a third of the normal price.
Have not yet introduced formula for my 4 month old but with my ds I introduced one bottle a day at 6 weeks old and it worked well.
Ignore centiles! As long as baby seems healthy I really don't think it means much.
Your breasts probably won't feel full because after a while they regulate how much milk you need to make- I never need breastpads after 3 months or so and don't feel full unless dd has slept longer than usual.
Do what works for you and good luck!