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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

5 week old - will expressing increase/decrease/not affect my supply?

24 replies

Miffster · 19/01/2011 13:05

I have a 5 week old big baby - he was an ounce shy of 9lbs at birth, 59cm long and has gained steadily ever since.

Am coming up to 6 week growth spurt ( or so I understand) and although I already have a good supply of milk, to the point that my boobs feel uncomfortably full and wake me in the middle of the night, I would like to build up my supply further just to be sure he doesn't go hungry next week

a) so I can meet his needs as he grows
b) so my DH can do the evening feeds, (or some of them).

At the moment I am clusterfeeding on sofa from 7pm til midnight, while he headbutts me and cries and guzzles frantically - then being woken at 2.45am, at 4am and 6am for more feeds, whereupon I get up and feed til mid morning.

Next week my DH is away at a conference, so I will be staying with my MIL who is very excited at spending time with her baby grandson

(little does she know about the evening cluster feeding and grizzling/crying/headbanging/winding frenzy, followed by the cross shouting every 2 hours if he isn't fed to satiety, with accompanying giant poos and alert larking about in the small hours, refusing to go to sleep. She has so far only seen him in the afternoons, when he coos alertly and charmingly for an hour at 1pm then sleeps angelically between 2pm and 4pm)

Anyway, it's all a bit much to deal with 24/7 and I am feeling frazzled and exhausted after almost 6 weeks of broken sleep and constant nursing, even though he is a dear little baby (when not furiously clamped onto my boob, sucking and yelling :( ), so I am really excited about expressing and then hiding for an hour in the bath with a book whilst DH or MIL feed him and pat/console/burp/play etc.

But now someone has just told me I will be decreasing my supply if I don't physically have him to my breast whenever he wants feeding in the first 8 weeks of his life.

I am very :( about this because although it is only a few more weeks, I feel trapped and shattered and I just need a break. It's my 40th birthday at the beginning of Feb and I was SO hoping to grab some time out for a massage in the afternoon and a drink
in the evening.

So, will expressing help or hinder my supply? What should I be doing to ensure I have enough milk and so that other people can do a few of the feeds for me?

OP posts:
gravepenguin · 19/01/2011 14:15

The most important thing about producing breast milk is that you are eating, drinking and resting well.
I expressed for the first eight weeks of my ds' life, i was told by neonatal nurses that as long as youre feeding / expressing in the night as well as during the day, then your supply will continue (something to do with noctural hormones). Youre doing a great job!

MoonUnitAlpha · 19/01/2011 14:22

They probably mean that your baby is much more efficient at stimulating your supply than a pump, so substituting direct feeds for expressing and bottle feeding could impact.

Personally I would wait until after 6 weeks to start expressing. The best way to meet your baby's needs during a growth spurt is just to let him feed whenever he wants and your supply will meet his demand. Adding expressing in just seems like an extra complication to me - though I've never been able to express anyway!

suso · 19/01/2011 15:38

I started expressing a week ago (DD is 7 weeks old today) and it didn't affect my milk supply negatively. DD had already hit the growth spurt, though, and was feeding all the time.
HTH

japhrimel · 19/01/2011 16:45

If expressing is an extra it shouldn't decrease your supply. If you replace feeds with pumping its hard to keep supply up as it doesnt stimulate your boobs as much. Nursing more in a growth spurt is the best way to increase supply but that doesn't mean you can't express to get a time-out bottle.

runningrach · 19/01/2011 18:05

Everyone and every baby is different, but it sounds like you have a robust and healthy baby and a good milk supply yourself. I am also fortunate to be in that position and I started expressing at around 4 weeks and have not decreased my supply. Actually I now have an oversupply and was advised by a lactation consultant to take steps to decrease it! I had been adding in an occasional express between feeds to get enough to supplement a late night feed or let my dh do it to give me a break.

So I agree with the others who say that occasionally expressing is unlikely to make a difference to your supply but I wouldn;t replace feeds with regular pumping at this stage.

Miffster · 19/01/2011 20:28

Japhrimel! How are you? Nice to see you back on MN.

Thanks for the info ladies - so as its early days, I have to express as well as feed to keep up supply? Instead of I was hoping to express in the day - say, in the morning - in order to let someone else feed DS between 10pm and 1am, so I could go to bed at 9pm and get a clear run at some unbroken sleep.

That's a bit disappointing - I was SO looking forward to not having to do the late night feeds, it is galling to cluster feed all evening AND have to feed in the dead of night several times as well.

Ah well, at least I asked, it would be awful if I was happily expressing away in the morning to feed in the evening and found my evening and night supply were ceasing.

OP posts:
MoonUnitAlpha · 19/01/2011 20:40

In a week or two though you'll be the other side of this growth spurt and your supply will be well established - by that point I can't see that expressing so someone else can do a feed will do any harm.

MoonUnitAlpha · 19/01/2011 20:42

Are you co-sleeping by the way? I found night feeds much easier to take if I slept through them Grin

PenguinArmy · 20/01/2011 03:48

DD was on a bottle of expressed milk (3-4oz) before 6 weeks (was returning to work early by UK standards and needed to be sure she would take bottles). DH gave her the bottle in the mornings. We would get up with her at 6am, feed her and return her to bed when he left.

I didn't however express (and so didn't give her a bottle) during the growth spurt. There was physically no time and at this stage you should express to order.

The other important thing is that they don't have so much (and they can take a lot more than need from a bottle) that they sleep through longer and you miss feeds between around 2/3am as these are good for supply.

So in a long winded way, I think there room to express now, but done with thought.

PenguinArmy · 20/01/2011 03:53

However, expressing is painted by society as a great way to help you and your family which I think is bollocks. All in all, it creates more work than it saves, it's a PITA and can quickly become a chore. Much better it's a tool to use as and when rather a fixed thing in your schedule. To many people do it for others rather than for themselves.

ethelina · 20/01/2011 04:05

I have expressed once a day, following the late morning feed, since very early on. DH gives the feed now at 7pm bedtime which suits me as I get that oh-so-necessary hour for a bath etc Grin. Bloody hell it's worth it if you can do it so go ahead and try. If you just add it o. To the end of a feed, (or pump while feeding which I coud never get the hang of), your boobs will take this into account after ca few days and produce enough to cover it anyway. Smile

Make sure you still feed a couple of times through the night to keep supply up and it should be fine.

ethelina · 20/01/2011 04:09

Crappy typing sorry. Just to say that expressing takes time to get and the first few rimes you might only get an ounce but I found after about five days that had increased and now at 18 weeks I have managed 7oz each time for a few weeks now. Boy takes anywhere between 3 and 6 oz per feed so I freeze the rest.

Miffster · 20/01/2011 15:04

Dear God.

Last night, the baby was up from midnight til 6am feeding, feeding, with no sleep AT ALL. Thank God I'd had a nap between 9pm and 11pm, then DH brought DS in to be fed at 11.45 and after that both of us were up because he absolutely would not go to sleep in his cot nest next to our bed, nor in bed with me.

All he would do was suck and grizzle. I fed him moving from boob to boob all night long, my exhausted DH went to bed at 4.30am and I stayed up feeding, rocking and listening to loud white noise. He was swaddled all night, that didn't work like it usually does either. Eventually, at 6am he went to sleep after drinking me dry and then drinking an ounce of milk I'd expressed the day before. Thank God, it was the only thing that shut him up.

I woke at 8.45am so I had almost 3 hours sleep, and had to express because my boobs which were deflated at 6am were engorged and leaking and sore. I got 3.5oz out by hand, in 20 mins, then fed DS. I could have got more but I just needed to relieve the pressure. I am starting to think I have an oversupply problem and DS is getting far too much foremilk, which woudl explain the colicy shouting, and fighting and spluttering at the breast, and the red face and ravenous appetite and huge explosive poos and wet nappies and him never being satisfied and me having sore engorged boobs after 3 hours no matter how much he feeds.

Today DS then stayed awake from 9am, feeding, and went to sleep at midday after another huge feed and marathon white noise onslaught. He did 2 hours asleep, then was hungry.

Now he has gone to sleep again in his sling. he has stopped feeding for a moment. I am so so tired but I have to stay awake to do some stuff, and go to the chemist whilst he is not crying to be fed.

I can't cope with nights like that!
Especially as I am on my own next week and DH is at a conference so I have been packed off to stay with MIL (in her late 60s).

He turns 6 weeks on Sunday. Please tell me this is not going to go on for nights and nights.

sorry, long stressed out post

OP posts:
bloomingnora · 20/01/2011 15:20

You poor thing. I keep typing long replies and then deleting them as it all seems trite in the face of nights like that. I will say that just keep the faith and it will get better. I used to go out for zombified walks slumped over the pram for an hour at a time because at least that meant I couldn't possibly be feeding the baby for that hour! Hopefully someone will come along with more practical advice. Make sure you are eating and resting all the time. Nothing is more important than this at the moment. And leave the house for 20 minutes the second DH walks through the door. Nothing bad will happen to either of them if DS cries for twenty minutes and it will give you some headspace.

bloomingnora · 20/01/2011 15:22

And they change REALLY quickly so basically they do something hideous, you get to the point where you cannpot bear it any longer and think 'anymore and I will surely die' and then they do something different. Until you think 'anymore and I shall surely die' etc. You're doing brilliantly.

KittyBump · 20/01/2011 20:44

Hi Miffster (popped over from Dec thread to see you :) ) sorry you're having such a hard time.
My DD has been doing all the things you describe, the colicky behaviour, headbutting, monster long feeds etc. I think it is oversupply, have you looked at the kelly mom site? There is a checklist for signs of oversupply. Does your DS have the green poos too? I have been feeding my DD on just one side and if she wants to feed again within 2 hours i still feed her on the same side (even though it feels soft and empty) this does seem to have helped a bit as her poo is often yellow now.
Does your milk spurt out if the baby comes off the nipple?
If you have oversupply then expressing might make it worse :( I was desperate to express too to get my DH to do a feed, my HV was fine about me trying this at 3 weeks but I didn't really give it much of a try as I found I'd rather be asleep than expressing when DD wasn't feeding IYSWIM. I think if you're expresing to replace a feed it shouldn't exacerbate the oversupply as you're just swapping one for the other it seems to be if you are expressing to stockpile that it becomes an issue.
It's so hard isn't it, I can't stand all this trial and error and conflicting advice.

I also thought it might be a latching issue, as although i don't have any pain and DD appears to be latched ok I don't always take much notice of how she latches on and this might be frustrating her.....

Anyway.. just wanted you to know you aren't alone. I hope tonight is better for you x

gloyw · 23/01/2011 20:29

miffster, I expressed from 2 weeks (following pro-BF MW's advice, as DS had no latch issues, had good weight gain etc), and my DP fed a bottle of expressed milk pretty much as you describe. One night feed, which gave me 3-4 hours of uninterrupted and desperately needed sleep. Occasionally I had over supply issues - boobs that were too big for comfort - but this was a minor inconvenience. And a price I was happy to pay for a little sleep, and to keep BF-ing rather than use formula.

Advice on expressing early on is so conflicted. You can basically find an authority to support almost any approach. I think to a large degree, it's sensible to play things by ear and not make any huge changes suddenly. And be aware that women who find it very hard to express will objectify their experiences, and tell you that expressing IS very hard, full stop. Not necessarily. It seems to vary hugely from mum to mum. I find it easy and fast. Luck of the draw.

Obviously, where there are existing big problems like poor latch, failure to thrive, then adding expressing and adding a bottle feed may well not help at all, but it doesn't sound like that's your situation.

One piece of advice my excellent MW gave me was to introduce a bottle before 6 weeks, if I wanted to have the option of using one - then use it once a day, or every 48 hours, just to keep DS familiar with it.

Thank god she told me that. Other BF advice was not to express or introduce a bottle til after 6 weeks. There are many posts on this forum from BF-ing women returning to work, or in other circumstances where they want their older babies to take a bottle, just once even, but their babies won't accept it.

At 5-6 weeks, it felt like DS was feeding almost constantly. I've actually looked back at the times I jotted down - to ask HV if it was normal! - and he very, very rarely went longer than 2 hours between feeds.

It did settle down later - and DS is over 6 months now, still BF, never had a drop of formula, and happily starting solids now.

It did get easier, a lot easier - but I do remember those early days as being awful, utterly, utterly exhausting. I felt like a prisoner, resented it hugely at times, and I'm not going to whitewash my experience to sound positive, cos frankly, I wish someone had warned me about those early days instead of bleating on about how MAHvellously bonding and convenient (convenient??! FFS) it all was.

Cluster feeding is the pits IMO because apart from going on for SO LONG, babies tend not to seem satisfied or happy. So you do all the exhausting hard work, and get a grizzly flailing crying baby in return.

One final thing - if your DS grunts, groans and thrashes around in his sleep, once he is lying down flat on his back, then it might be worth investigating reflux, silent or otherwise.

My fussy feeding light sleeping DS had it - various things, including simply lifting the back legs of his cosleeper, so his 'head end' was higher than his bum end, helped a LOT. His reflux appeared somewhere around 8 weeks, I think - and I ignored/lived with the symptoms, and his unhappiness, for a while because someone confidently told me there was no such thing as silent reflux. And as a first time mum, I didn't have the confidence to follow my instincts.

I hope things are getting better for you. I remain totally convinced of the benefits of BF-ing, and I'm very glad I am, but those early days can be bloody awful. Big sympathy.

Miffster · 29/01/2011 11:55

Thank you so much for the replies and sorry it's been ages since I replied I have not been able to do anything since my DH went to the conference in Dublin so I was on my own day and night right in the middle of week 6.

We abandoned plans to stay with MIL, as on arrival there she was also looking after SIL's 2 boys aged 10 and 12. DS screaming at night would have woken the whole house and during the day she was mostly going to be out taking them to school-related sporty things so I would have had no support anyway and all the inconvenience of having to apologise for my antisocial baby in someone else's house.

It was pretty tough on my own with him, I got 3 hours sleep each night and fed and fed.

He wouldn't go in his cot so we co-slept.
I was frightened of using a duvet so DS wore his baby sleeping bag and I wore a dressing gown and stayed crunched in the same position. My sleep was poor and when I woke I ached all over.

DH came home last night, I expressed 4oz and went to bed after doing the midnight feed. DH up with him til 4am, gave him the bottle and then I got up and settled him at the breast and he finally went to sleep.

DH is full of remorse at leaving me with him, he is worn out and confessed to wanting to shout SHUT UP at DS at 3am and that was only after 1 night!

How long do growth spurts last? Is it normal to have the baby being extra clingy, refusing to go in cot, wanting to be held 24/7, refusing to sleep and eating all the time during one?
How can you tell the growth sport has ended?
He is 7 weeks on Sunday.
He seems to have got longer and his sleepsuits seem smaller.

He still has not smiled. That is what makes it all so hard. He looks at me, then yawns and looks past me and is more interested in the fairy lights than my face.

:(
:(

OP posts:
MoonUnitAlpha · 29/01/2011 12:04

It's very normal for a new baby to want to be held all the time and not go in a cot, growth spurt or not. I don't really remember how long the growth spurt lasted - a few days/a week?

Did he sleep ok while in bed with you, or not even then?

Miffster · 29/01/2011 12:17

He slept for 3 - 3.5 hours in bed with me.He also slept in his buggy when on a walk the day before yesterday and DH has just taken him out in the buggy again.

He is such a cling-on and I can see that not sleeping is wearing him out. He won't 'go down' for naps either, if he is cuddled/worn in sling then placed down in a bouncy chair/cot he cries and wakes up at once.

OP posts:
MoonUnitAlpha · 29/01/2011 12:22

I'd keep cuddling/slinging him for naps for the time being then - don't think I managed to get ds to nap in a cot til he was a few months old.

japhrimel · 29/01/2011 15:10

Do you "wear" him down? Ie. put him down still in the sling? I do this with our babasling and Dr Sears suggests it in 'The baby Book'.

I'd really recommend that book actually as there is loads of info on "high need" babies that I found very helpful.

Instigating a nap routine has helped us as DD was getting overtired which made her clingier, wanting to nurse continuously and not be put down, but what she really needed was sleep. I'm taking her to bed and feeding her to sleep for naps as otherwise I can't usually settle her without going out with the pram. But at least then I get some rest too.

Scottyshirley · 11/02/2013 16:33

Hi , great advice, how much should I express for a 3 week old ? Ie how much milk would they need for a feed

SanneSannes · 11/02/2013 19:29

scotty visit www.kellymom.com you will find info on amounts as well as lots of other useful advice regarding expressing there

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