Not happy with HV advice

[Bumperlicious]

Been to the baby clinic today to get dd2 weighed, first time since 6 week check. Haven't felt the need to go before, dd2 is putting on plenty of weight but I thought I might ask for advice on sleep issues. Basically she doesn't go down in the evenings & doesn't got to bed till about midnight. It's pretty tiring.

HV asked whether she goes down in the cot (well it's a hammock) during the day and I said she usually does but we bounce her a little bit. This is a step up from the situation we had pre 3 months whereby she would only sleep on me. HV said I need to stop bouncing her so she learns to go to sleep by herself. I said what was I supposed to do, just leave her to cry, and she just gave me a look as if to say 'yes if you don't want to be bouncing her when she is 15, that's what you need to do'. I said I thought she was too young for controlled crying, did she have any other solutions that didn't involve leaving her to cry?

Her solutions are to increase my milk supply by pumping to fill her up more or to give her a bottle if formula.

I just don't think these are appropriate solutions. I expected her to talk to me about bedtime routines etc. I don't want to offer formula. I'm not sure she needs more milk, I feed on demand, she just needs to sleep in the evenings.

Now she has booked in a home visit because she is 'worried about me'. I don't know if she thinks I have pnd, as far as I am concerned I am just tired (also not feeling well). I fear she may be basing this on the fact that I couldn't remember how many weeks dd2 is. I mean I know she is 3 months but I've gone beyond the keeping track in weeks stage (she is 15 weeks incidentally).

Oh and I also need a better diet as dd is probably missing out on vitamins apparently.

Not sure about sleep issues because I co slept, but regarding the feeding, no, those are crap answers.

Someone with BF experience will be along soon - mine is limited. :(

Take her to bed with you? Cancel the appointment?

have a read of this. especially the bit that breastmilk isn't just food.

Don't ask hv for advice on stuff, that's my answer to you, at 3 months your daughter is normal I'm afraid! Seriously, in my experience hv equals chocolate teapot, you would be better asking a friend, family or consulting the web or a book x

Well I'd say if dd is thriving then the vitamin stuff is nonsense!

But HV has a point, if you never leave the child alone, she'll never learn to put herself to sleep.

I am well out of date about the latest thing...my baby is now 13 but they were and all are good sleepers

I learned my mistake with ds1, feeding and nursing him to sleep, was a hard habit to break at 10+ months, however you do have the luxury of time with the first.

Good luck.

i gave dd1 formula in a desperate bid to get her to sleep more

it did the square root of bugger all. she was a crap sleeper regardless of what was in her tummy.

You won't be bouncing her in 3 months time. I reckon this time next month she will have got bored of the bouncing.

Someone will be along with better advice.

Cancel the Home Visit - if this is the quality of advice she dishes out it would be pointless seeing her more than you have to.

Don't ask the HV for parenting advice - they'll only give you their opinion, which is no more or less valuable than anyone elses.

I'd ask her for some info to back up the vitamin thing though. The only vitamin that can be a problem is vitamin D as far as I know. Or does she think you're genuinely malnourished?

Bump - how would it be if you were more direct with the HV about what you wanted to hear?

If you want to discuss sleep and bathtime and bedtime routines, then say so.

The HV has given you options you don't like - stop rocking; give formula. I don't like them either (personal opinion) and I don't think rocking is abnormal for a 15 week old, and she clearly does not need formula for nutritional reasons.

The fact she has talked about your diet vis a vis the vitamins your baby needs shows she may not be 100 per cent up to date with bf and this is reinforced by the suggestion to pump - this is time consuming and if you needed to inc your milk supply (why?) it would be easier to simply bf more.

But she needs to know she has not hit the nail anywhere near the head, and the home visit might give you the confidence to say so, and to explore other things that have worried the HV - she may think you need more one to one support, not that you have PND. Once she knows what you want to talk about, maybe she will not be as bad as you fear!

Get your DH or friend to be at the visit with you as back up. Also, good if she gives you some interesting advice you have a witness if you want to make a complaint/discuss her advice with her superiors.

If you need a better diet, then you will be missing vits not your milk and hence not your baby unless of course all you've eaten is economy jam and pappy white bread sandwiches for the last year and stay inside all day (so no vit D) then your HV might have cause for concern. If you just aren't eating a diet 'Dr' Gillian McKeith would be proud of then no worries.

On the sleep front that seems fairly common and DD3 didn't have a 7pm bedtime until she was nearly a year - she liked to go to bed when we did (around 10.30pm) and sleep on one of us until then if she wasn't playing or feeding.

Coincidently, when I was pg with DD3 someone asked me how far gone I was and I didn't even remember I was pg let alone how many weeks - if they'd have asked me when I was pg with DD1 I would have been able to tell them week & day straight away......

Seriously about almost everything our HV has said.

Firstly, the way to increase your supply is to breastfeed more, not to pump or give formula. Of course you can pump if you want to, but in general babies are better at extracting milk than pumps. If you find it easy to pump, then by al means do so earlier in the day and let your OH give her the ebm late in the evening so that you can get some more sleep.

Vitamins: a good all-round supplement may help you, as you are probably run down and tired, but it won't make any difference to your milk. Your milk is already good and nutritious. The quality of your milk is not the reason for your difficult nights.

Sleep: at this age babies are quite likely still to need night feeds, and may sometimes still need an evening feed-a-thon. It may be possible for you to encourage her to feed more during the earlier part of the day, and then her evening feeding may be shorter.

Rocking to sleep seems a reasonable interim solution. You do whatever works for you now, because it can be changed in the future - as long as you are prepared to work on the change. Personally I think stroking to sleep is a good way of teaching a child to self-settle, as it is something that can easily be changed.

Do you ever feed her to sleep? That's a much harder one to change.

CC is completely un-necessary, and IMO to aggressive (I have done it, it works, but I regret it and would only use it as a last resort waaaaay downthe line).

Have a look at The No Cry Sleep Solution. A very useful and non-prescriptive book.

I did tell her I didn't want to leave dd to cry, I thought it was too young. I think HVs some times tell us want they think we want to hear, i mean sort of 'giving you permission' to introduce formula or leave them to cry.

I will try and be more clear. To be honest I didn't expect much as when she came at 6 weeks and offered me the weaning leaflet I said I didn't need it as I'd do BLW as I had dome with dd1. She said 'riiight, she's quite a big baby. What will you do when she gets hungry before 6 months?'. I did tell her politely that I'd just give her more milk.

I've got the NCSS on order from the library!

I'm not worried about the bouncing to sleep, sometimes it takes half an hour to settle her, sometimes a minute. I'm just happy she sleeps anywhere but on me! But the evening thing is just frustrating, coupled with the late night, it's just hard work. I just thought she might suggest something mumsnet I hadn't thought of. But I'm not convinced it is hunger keeping her awake, as she will sleep on me.

When she does eventually go in her hammock it is asleep but she will go usually about 6 hours.

I grew up in the Caribbean. We all slept in hammocks as babies till fairly big. (A cut off broom stick was used to keep it 'open' and deep so a crawling baby can't really climb out) Even as toddlers we napped in them. Strung over the parental bed. When we fussed the rope my parents attached to it got pulled.

could you adapt this to suit your house and lifestyle?

I decided not to bother listening to my HV when she told me when DS was 8 weeks that if I picked him up when he was crying when I was trying to settle him in his basket, I was disturbing him more and I should leave him. Erm, no thanks. I think if my DS is crying then he wants something, even if it's just a cuddle. Sorry you didn't get anything useful out of her though.

IMHO baby won't remember she's been rocked to sleep, but will learn to associate her bed with sleep. I rocked dc1 and 2 and I still rock dc3(6m).

Bumper if you are happy with the rocking etc then I would carry on - she won't need it forever but if it settles her now then great.

6 hour stretch is pretty good at this age I think? I know evenings are your nightmare, I've seen a couple of your other threads and not really known what to suggest!
DS was really similar, we could never get him down until we went to bed too at 11ish and so after a few hideous weeks of stressing about it and trotting up and down the stairs for hours and not getting to eat a meal together or have any time to sit down we decided to just go with it. DS was downstairs with us in the evenings and that was that.
He gradually added a nap that went roughly 6-8 which gave us a break and time to have dinner in peace, but he was probably 8-9 months before we were able to do a 'bedtime' for him and settle him for the night without us being there. We started somewhere around 10pm and gradually pulled it forward.

there's no quick fix, if there was all babies would sleep through the night. You're lucky to be offered a home visit as HV's are so stretched, she needs to know a lot more about your situation before she can help. It sounds like she did her best in less than ideal circumstances, but clinic is not the place for in-depth discussion of sleep issues.

I still bounce DD (6 months) to sleep or take her for a walk in her pram for all her naps because she is such a terrible sleep resistor. Despite this she always goes to sleep straight away for her 7pm bedtime in her cot.

I don't have a problem with this and if your method works for you then you should keep doing it.

Theres info on fussy evening babies on kellymom. I think its common, we definitely struggle a bit with it.