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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

TIKTOK and other breast feeding gurus - HELP please!!!

27 replies

LilRedWG · 03/01/2011 22:59

I am 34 weeks tomorrow and will be having a section a few days before due date. This is my second DC and I really want BFing to work this time as it didn't go brilliantly well with DD. So, if I give you the history of what happened with DD can anyone give me some advice as to what to do this time, pretty please?

DD was born by elective section at 38 weeks, due to several problems including severe SPD and GD. She latched perfectly, according to HCPs, from the get-go but after one or two sucks would fall fast asleep. Everyone in the hospital (including the cleaners :)) had a go at waking DD to feed but nothing worked - stripping down, tickling feet, etc etc.

Nothing worked and after 48 hours of this the nursery nurse from special care said, "We'll get this baby to feed one way or another - lets starve her into submission". So no drip feeding or cup feeding of my tiny amounts of colostrum from a finger, just offering the breast. This went on for 15 hours until I said enough is enough, give her a bottle. :( I feel so guilty for this now, but being a first time nervous mum I didn't stand up to them. Poor DD must have been starving and was probably too tired to feed.

From that point on I expressed every four hours and DD fed on the last feed I'd expressed, mixed with formula as she was jaundiced and on phototherapy and they said she had to have 90ml at every feed.

My milk didn't fully come in until DD was eight days old, at which point I dropped the formula totally and exclusively fed DD expressed breast milk - at each feed offering her the opportunity to feed from the breast first. The same thing happened everytime - DD would latch on and fall fast asleep.

I managed to keep this up for three months, by which time I was exhausted and I gave up and formula fed her. :(

Thank you if you have got through my mammoth post and if you can offer any advice for how best to feed DC2 I'd be really grateful.

Thank you.

OP posts:
aviatrix · 03/01/2011 23:03

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LilRedWG · 03/01/2011 23:15

Thank you aviatrix.

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llareggub · 03/01/2011 23:15

A similar thing happened to me with DS1. He was also born via c-section, was jaundiced and required phototherapy. I probably had undiagnosed GD, too. I had a vile time with the SCBU nurse who threatened to have him taken away if I refused to give formula. Hmm

Like you I did manage to breastfeed afterwards and continued to mix-feed. At times he had quite a bit of formula, and sometimes we managed a few days with none. Contrary to expectations, we continued like this until he was 2 years 9 months, when he self-weaned.

I got pregnant when he was 2 and DS2 was born via VBAC. He wasn't as jaundiced as DS1 but this time the midwives pretty much left me too it. I think they treat you differently second time around. Additionally, I was far more confident about breastfeeding, having done it for so long and being so determined not to have the same experience with the vile SCBU nurse.

I definitely had GD second time around and DS2 was at 50th centile, btw. Not big at all!

It was a totally different experience this time around, even though DS2 had tongue-tie. I've EBF him but despite our best efforts, he never took a bottle. Quite clearly this was a major downside but a small price to pay!

But do try and relax about it. Good luck and hope it all goes well.

llareggub · 03/01/2011 23:18

I just wanted to add that with DS2 I was far more confident about everything. I'm pretty sure that my confidence about baby-care made a difference. With DS1 I was knackered after the c-section, scared by the whole phototherapy thing and so scared of doing it wrong.

LilRedWG · 03/01/2011 23:24

Thank you llareggub - a happy story in the end for you. The SC nurses can be quite intimidating can't they.

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aviatrix · 04/01/2011 08:36

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiktok · 04/01/2011 09:28

LilRed you description of what happened in the maternity unit with your first DD is horrifying. Everything you say about what they advised is absolutely terrible practice - really, really bad. Not your fault. It was their job to support you and to enable you to breastfeed. It is very hard to stand up to professionals, even when you start to suspect they don't know what they are doing.

It's amazing you overcame a lot of this with determination, and expressed for your baby for that length of time - not an easy thing to do at all.

Here's what I think happened: I don't think your baby did latch perfectly. The fact she fell asleep after two sucks shows this. There may have been birth issues that made getting attachment just right into a difficulty, but whatever....the Big Mistake they made was this insistence on waking her up and the manhandling and messing about that ensued with all those people involved. This causes babies to switch off and protect themselves from the massive over-stimulation and disturbance by either fighting and resisting, or by simply falling asleep. Longer term, it translates itself into just not latching on.

Instead, holding your baby close and relaxedly, for as much of 24/7 as possible, could have repaired whatever it was impeding her attachment, and you and she could have discovered your own gentle ways of achieving direct breastfeeding, without pressure and drama.

This time, just keep your baby close to you. Get him/her handed to you immediately after the section (this should be possible but you will need to insist on it in advance - get it written into your notes and get the midwives to agree and the surgeon to agree when you go into theatre) with no more than a blanket over you both and his/her hands free for you to enjoy skin to skin. Your baby can explore and touch and may feed then and there but it does not matter if this (feeding) does not happen straight away.

Thereafter, stay close :)

otchayaniye · 04/01/2011 09:50

Very best of luck. Your post brought back some anxious memories for me.

I too had my daughter (in Asia) via planned section at 35/36 weeks due to breech and preeclampsia. She was quite small ? just over 5 lbs ? although naturally small as I am small. But definitely a bit on the little side due to preeclampsia. Anyway. Because she was early I hadn?t really read up on the feeding side ? I was busy working and a bit in denial. Plus there were no ante-natal classes and I was in a bit of an isolated bubble. In some ways I was a blank canvas, which can be good, but in other ways it wasn?t good.

Looking back, it was bad that they kept taking her away from me and only bringing her to me every three hours (she needed time under lights for jaundice, but not all the time) but I knew no better. Paed who was present for the birth and expressed no concern about her size ? just about her clicky hip and slight head misshape from being against my ribs. But now I know that I needed to feed constantly really.

As it was my milk did come in within 48 hours. That said, the paed said that although you have to watch the weight fall of babies, they don?t HAVE to have milk in 48 hours and you can ride it out in some cases until it does come in. But that?s not my place to say as I?m not a HCP, I?m only reporting what my paed said to reassure me.

She was just so sleepy. It was a constant struggle to get her to suckle for more than 2-3 minutes. I could hardly open her slightly prem, tiny mouth. I had large but flattish nipples. I remember being in a blind panic those days trying to wake her, setting my alarm for every 2 hours in the night (once I forgot and she slept for 10 hours and I remember hating myself then). Holding her under the aircon unit, tickling, everything. You name it. But she must have got enough to tied her over as she came out of her sleepy jaundice state in about 2 weeks and really took to it sucking for what seemed like hours. I think the panic and concern completely blotted out the sleeplessness and nipple pain.

I tried expressing to augment my supply but I couldn?t really express. Besides she fed so frequently ? that there was no build up to easily express off and the pump never set off a let down to get more.

It was a shock when I took her for a weigh in the next week (so 10 days after birth) she?d lost 12-15 percent of her birth weight. But the paed wasn?t alarmed, said it was normal and said I could ?if I wanted, though? top her up with formula, or express in between feeds and syringe feed that.

This ? along with comments from strangers at how small my daughter was ?lah? ? started a long anxiety about her weight that took about a year to subside! But by this stage I?d spent hours on Kellymom and hired a private lactation consultant (who said I was doing fine) so knew that the key to successful feeding was constant access to the breast. So I babymooned for weeks and didn?t top up.
At about 3-4 months I felt I?d really crossed a barrier. She was putting on weight. Well within her line but not much over (I guess some HCPs and mothers would have liked more and may have been tempted to top up). The paed was very pleased with her progress. My daughter never exhibited any signs of not getting enough (she?s just a tiddler, still is) and her development was very advanced. This ultimately reassured me. I also had the freedom to feed all the time as she was my first child. It would be harder with a toddler around.

I continued to feed frequently. By around 14 months she was still feeding very frequently ? like some newborns. And co-sleeping and slung everywhere. By around 19 months I cut down the daytime feeds and by 22 months stopped feeding to sleep (what this all did to my sleep I won?t go into here!). I still feed her once a day most days (early mornings, so I get a sneaky lie-in until, erm, 7am) and I?m now 2 months pregnant (one side effect of all this demand feeding was no periods until she was 22 months old). She?s now 2 years and three months.

I sympathise with your concerns. Those early days seem so epoch shattering that every feed is a drama ? especially when they don?t just take to the breast like they are supposed to in books and videos. But if your baby is jaundiced and sleepy , please try to remember that it won?t be for long, as long as your try and wake her often and offer the breast as often she will get colostrum and some milk and you?ll probably be able to ride our those first shaky days. Your sleep and nerves, however, will probably suffer!

Good luck with the birth and you can do it. If a neophyte like me can, you can.

otchayaniye · 04/01/2011 09:54

Tiktok of course said it better than me. And of course the baby needs to be latched properly (I don't think my baby latched on all that well in the very earliest days) and needs to get sufficient milk. I read what I posted again and I don't want to give impression you can just leave it all to chance. Under-term babies in particularly need monitoring and need their milk.

After the initial two weeks of faffing and waking I actually did something I found out later is self latching. I just had my baby all the time on my chest (while I watched all of The Wire) and let her latch when she wanted. I found that was much more successful than the dive-bomb technique I was given by the hospital lactation nurse. The private lactation nurse (a UK citizen and breastfeeding counsellor) agreed.

tiktok · 04/01/2011 10:20

otcha - great story. Particularly endorse the self-attachment/letting her latch thing - I truly dislike the 'dive bombing' technique which can feel so invasive to mothers and babies, and like 'ramming' the baby on. I'm aware it can appear to work sometimes, but it is very disempowering (because it needs someone else to do it - the mother is just sitting there) and babies sometimes resist it, too, which damages their experience at the breast.

I agree small, pre-term babies need monitoring, as does any baby whose breastfeeding does not get off to a good start. OP's baby is to be born at term minus a few days only, so lets hope all goes well :)

tiktok · 04/01/2011 10:21

Correction: 'like ramming the baby on' does not mean 'I like ramming the baby on' - I meant 'such as ramming the baby on' !!

VeronicaCake · 04/01/2011 12:05

If you can get your birth partner to read this thread beforehand.

I had a straightforward delivery and once all the HCPs had finally left the room DD was on my chest feeding happily when a healthcare assistant came back in and said 'You need to hold her head for her to latch on' and (she was already latched on at this point) took her off and shoved her on again. I was a bit too blissed out on birth hormones to resist and DH was sitting there thinking 'I know this is wrong but I don't want to contradict anyone'. The MWs then insisted on witnessing me getting DD to latch on in this way (the poxy stupid cross-cradle hold) before they'd discharge me. This was at a baby-friendly hospital too.

I don't know if we would still have had problems with latching the following week if the hospital had just left DD to it but I do know it knocked my confidence right at that start.

I wish I'd been more assertive and so does DH, but it isn't easy. With hindsight he wishes he'd said 'Why do you think there is a problem?'. So maybe ask your birth partner to ask some questions each time you are offered advice. It may be you get excellent advice but there is no reason not to question and buy yourself some time to think each time someone tries to help.

coldcomfortHeart · 04/01/2011 12:30

Definitely second the advice to get as much skin to skin as early as possible, in theatre if possible. As you are having a planned section this should be no problem but like tiktok says, write it in your birth plan, tell your midwife, tell the consultant, tell anyone and everyone!

The baby may be wheeked off to the ressuscitaire straight away to dry off etc (if hale and hearty this is pointless but does happen) and often then returned to the mum utterly sausage-ified like a big swaddled grub! skin to skin is so simple and so important. Best of luck, you are forearmed this time and seem determined- hats off for expressing so long first time round, it's tough stuff.

felicity10 · 04/01/2011 12:41

Crikey, this post could not have been more timely, I had such a similar experience and this is great advice - I am just considering TTC for DC2 and this is a huge issue for me too. Agree though, sounds like we will be more confident and although it can still take time to get the hang of it, it will not be a surprise this time.

Best of luck.

LilRedWG · 04/01/2011 12:58

Wow - so many replies, with so much helpful advice. :)

aviatrix - thank for the bump this morning.

Thank you to all of you who have shared your stories and to tiktok and everyone for the great advice.

I do have one more question, following on from your replies. With DD, DH had skin-to-skin in theatre, which he loved and I am keen for him to have again as it was so wonderful for us. This meant that DD was about 30-40 minutes old by the time I held her in recovery. Would this have a negative impact on the baby feeding if we repeated?

In some ways the hospital were great - they suggested DD sleeping with me one night to get the skin to skin and they really did try, but in many ways I still feel that I let DD down in those early days.

I was also on patient administered morphine for the first day with DD, which I'm guessing made DD sleepy too, so will ask to stick to Voltarol this time.

I definitely intend on being (or trying) a lot more assertive this time. DH is a great advocate and I'll get him to read this thread too.

Thanks again. I'll no doubt be back with lots more questions.

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otchayaniye · 04/01/2011 13:09

Hi, I didn't have skin-on-skin for hours and it didn't affect anything and am still feeding more than two years on.

I simply didn't know about skin-on-skin. Mind you, made up for it since then.

I'd say it was desirable, but not necessary.

tiktok · 04/01/2011 13:14

LilRed - when it comes to choosing who gets the skin to skin after birth, then sorry, it should be the mum ie you. This is biology, not gender politics .

The baby is born and the touch, smell, taste of his previous environment are familiar to him and are echoed in the arms of his mother, giving a smooth and gentle transition to the world. Dads holding are 2nd best, and brilliant if the mother cannot do it, and certainly better than being away from loving human contact at all, but IMO it's the mother who should be doing it if possible.

I don't think your 40 mins delay would be crucial in bf success, but anything that separates a mother from her baby after birth has the potential for contributing to making things more difficult.

I think the hospital were rubbish from what you say - the biggest give away was when you said 'everyone' had a go at waking your baby up in the first 48 hours and they topped that with the ploy of 'starving' him into submission. You did not let your DD down - you were let down by amateurish 'help' with bf.

Hope it goes well this time :)

KSal · 04/01/2011 14:40

just wanted to come on and echo the sentiment that it needn't be the same this time around. My DD was born a little early and did similar to yours - a few sucks then asleep. I had the MW in the delivery suite ramming her little head onto my breast which i found very upsetting and it did nothing.

in the following few days i was told to get a fixed hourly amount into her due to jaundice and the only way i could do it quickly enough was bottle so this was introduced way too early for my liking. because she was classed as prem they would not let me home with her until they were sure i was delivering enough expressed milk.

in the days following discharge, the MWs and HVs encouraged me to top up following every feed... and we got to the stage where she would scream through the BF then guzzle down the bottle. I only lasted 2 months at this before giving up so kudos to you for lasting 3!

anyway, when DS was born i badgered them to give him to me from the moment he was born. he found the breast and sucked straight away. I cried. I won't pretend its all been roses since but we're still EBF (exclusive because he's refusing any bottle action... monkey) and he's doing so well.

this baby may well be different, and you will have the benefit of hindsight. I certainly would have done things differently with DD if had had the confidence, but i was railroaded really and scared into feeding her the way the paediatrician wanted.

choceyes · 04/01/2011 14:44

Hi I had a very similar experience to you LilRed.

I had a lot of trouble feeding my DS. I had an emergency c-section with him. I was exhausted with a 27hr active labour plus 3 days of contractions and he was born at about 4am and we had a half hearted attempt at bfing but I fell asleep straightafter as my BP was very low by then. I didn't realise it was really important to feed him as soon as possible and we both slept till about 10am. He just didn't want to latch on and then he was jaundiced and had to be topped up by formula (cup fed) to keep him under the lamp. I was unhappy about the formula but I was told I had to give that as he had to be under the lamp. I did also hand express all the colustrum I could get and gave it to him by syringe.
Even after we got home he just didn't want to latch on, would cry at the breast.
In hindsight I should have tried harder, but I was ill advised by the midwifes and HVs. In the end I gave up trying to get him latched on. I was expressing my milk and he was getting mostly BM in the first couple of weeks and then exclusively BM thereafter. I managed to express milk for him for 11 months, till I went back to work.

So this time with my DD of 5 months, I was worried about history repeating itself. I read up on the reality of breastfeeding in the early weeks, how to encourage latch on, feed as much as possible, skin to skin etc etc.
I didn't have to worry as DD was great at BFing! I had a planned c-section with her and within 45mins she was feeding. I held her all night while we at hospital (she didn't want to sleep in cot and hospital told me that I coulnd't co-sleep there - but saying that I did fall asleep holding her sometimes and they kept an eye on us and i wasn't told off for it!).
She is a dream to feed and I've had NO probelms at all feeding her, a completely different experience to my DS.
We had lots of skin to skin, I sling her all the time and we co-sleep too.

I recommend the book by La Leche League - Womanly art of breastfeeding.

LilRedWG · 04/01/2011 17:16

Thank you for sharing such lovely experiences with me.

Tiktok - message received, will take on board with all of your other advice. :)

WRT letting the baby self-attach/latch-on, what's the best position - just tummy to tummy in the middle of my chest so he/she can wriggle over or near to the breast?

Thank you all again. I'm feeling much more confident already. :)

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otchayaniye · 04/01/2011 17:54

I let my baby sort of straddle across my capacious belly sort of left side to right, head nearish to my (massive) breast and just let her wriggle up and latch on. Like in those videos of baby kangaroos!

coldcomfortHeart · 04/01/2011 18:10

LilRed I am with tiktok on this one too- I have a lovely lovely photo of DH skin to skin with DS when he was about 5 weeks old. Skin to skin contact doesn't have to end when bf is 'established'! And dads can have so much loving contact at other times. And yes, if you were to be unavailable then skin to skin with your DH is definitely better than being all wrapped up in a cot. But to give things the best possible start then it should be you, uninterrupted, for as long as poss. Weighing, measuring, temp taking, vit d injection ETC can wait. Not essential things.

Of course you can bf, very successfully, without prolonged, uninterrupted skin to skin contact from birth. But it really is the best way to kick things off, along with the unhurried, relaxed, non-forced approach tiktok's talked about. And this time you also have mn- no substitute for rl support but pretty good!

coldcomfortHeart · 04/01/2011 18:12

Oh and yes, tummy to tummy so he/she can head bob over and self-latch- if you google jack newman he has lots of videos you can watch of babies breastfeeding.

aviatrix · 04/01/2011 21:19

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LilRedWG · 12/01/2011 17:44

Thanks again all. Just counting down now. Will no doubt be back with lots more questions. :)

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