Absolutely desperate-why can't I BF?

[planner26]

Have just spent another night of painful latching after
3 weeks of trying to bf. Have seen mws, hvs and feeding consultants only to manage it correctly in front of them with their help then fail miserably at home. Just recovering from horrible episode of mastitis also had bleeding cracked nipples and no support from dp. I am absolutely at my wits end with it. I keep feeding her knowing it's wrong latch (have tried taking her on and off again loads) because I know she is getting lots of milk and gaining weight nicely. Just don't know how long I can keep this up for and I am so desperate to get it right. With the holidays most support groups are closed.

I'm so sorry to hear that you are having a hard time. But well done for persevering for so long, and that your dd is gaining weight well - you need to congratulate yourself on that.

Mastitis is horrible, it gets you when you are at your weakest.

It's a good sign that you can latch her on well with the mw etc, that show that you CAN do it.

I would recommend that you always unattach when the latch is bad, as this will only stop the cracks from healing. Timing and co-ordination are important - bring her to your nipple when she starts to open her mouth (as opposed to waiting until her mouth is open, as then it will start to close by the time you latch her on).

Good luck.

Oh bless you Well it is great that your DD is gaining well but you shouldn't be suffering like this.

Who are the feeding consultants you have been seeing? Are they NHS ones, private ones, people from LLL or NCT etc? And whereabouts in the country are you? Not all the groups will be closed. And you can ring the helplines anytime.

I'm so sorry you are having such a hard time. And well done for sticking it out in the face of such adversity! Have you tried ringing the La Leche league helpline(08451202918) or NCT helpline(03003300771)? Maybe they can get someone to come to your home to help you, just thinking there might be a small thing that is different at home then when you are out.
Sorry I don't have anymore advice but I'm sure others will be along with some good ideas.

Hello. I'm no expert but i'm sure someone knowledgeable will come along soon. Just wanted to tell you about my own experience. My son has never latched 'correctly'. I'm still feeding him at 16 months. I had sore and cracked nipples in the early days but once they 'toughened up' it wasn't painful any more and I just let him get on with it. So maybe if you can face it slap on the Lansinoh and see if you can get past this? I'm sure others will be along with better ideas. Your LO is growing on only your milk! You're doing a most fantastic job! Good luck.

Oh and also I used the NCT helpline and found them very good.

It is MISERABLE when feeding is painful, I'm so sorry.

Do you have any sense at all of what makes the difference between the good latches you've managed whilst being observed and the more painful ones at home? Is it seating position, cushions, did they help you get her on each time?

I think if you carry on with bad latches you just end up getting more and more sore and damaged. That's what I found. I ended up having to stop and expressing for a couple of days to give my nips a chance to heal. Are you expressing at all? Even when they started to heal, I'd sometimes do one expressed feed a day just to give them a few hours off!

Lanisoh cream, if you're not already using it, is brilliant.

Has anyone checked your DD for tongue tie? That turned out to be our problem in the end and getting it snipped helped immensely.

Oh planner I opened this thread hoping it wouldn't be you - things seemed to be improving so much for you over on the other thread.

The holidays are a tough time to be struggling with bfing. Have you phoned any of the helplines? Please do try them. At the very least you'll be able to have a flowing conversation in real time. And they may be able to send someone out to you. Try all the lines, as theyare run by different organisations, so if one org can't send a bfing supporter to you another may be able to.

These are the numbers:
National Breastfeeding Helpline 0300 100 0212
National Childbirth Trust 0300 330 0771
Breastfeeding Network 0300 100 0210
La Leche League 0845 1202918
Association of Breastfeeding Mothers 08444 122949

Have another look at the other thread, to refresh your memory of how far you've come and just how much you have achieved.

Why not take a nice warm bath with your dd? It's very relaxing and soothing. Make it as deep as you can, and let it go onas long as you like. You canswish dd between your legs to be immersed in water, or scoop water over her back to keep her warm as she lies face-down on your chest.

I could have posted that 5 years ago planner. Hang in there. Have you tried rugby hold, can get deeper latch?

Totally agree get bfc on phone and ask mw re tongue tie, wish I'd done the latter as it might have been the problem.

This isn't necessarily going to be the best thing for you but just wanted to flag an alternative to all the excellent advice above. I was in the same position as you 3 weeks ago with nipple pain and was completely drained by the whole feeding process, crying non stop and starting to want to avoid DD in case she woke up and wanted feeding because it hurt so badly. In the end I decided to focus on what was important to me personally - which was (i) feeding EBM if I possibly could and (ii) enjoying feeding time with baby. With those objectives in mind I tried out breast pumping electrically and found I could get a lot of milk out that way without pain. DD has been exclusively fed with expressed BM since then (twice on the breast when it wasn't convenient/we'd run out) and it is working well for us. I share this experience tentatively because firstly I know not everyone has a good milk supply this way, secondly it is a LOT of organisation keeping ahead of demand and it is v tiring in its own way. Certainly I would have preferred to breast feed for convenience, but I strongly suspect DD would not be getting any BM now if I hadn't switched to a pump. Just wanted to share a different approach - hope you have a wonderful Christmas and things improve very soon

Sorry - I should have added that DD seems OK to go back on the breast occasionally in an emergency but from my reading this isn't always the case if you start using expressed milk in bottles. Didn't want to give misleading example!

Casserole - I already spent 6 days expressing exclusively early on as my nipples got in such a bad state. It worked out ok but too much work for me by myself to change, feed, express constantly.

WillbeanChariot- how long did it take for them to toughen up? That would be great if they did.

I got my mum to watch the latch/ position earlier as she came with me to the NHS Feeding Consultant and BFed all 3 of us and she couldn't work out what I was doing different. I even sat in an office chair like I did in her office. The FC did say that LO had lost her reflex to throw her head back by using the bottle for a week on expressed milk and I'm wondering if that's the problem.

Thanks for all your advice, have tried LL and NHS - I think I'll give NCT a go this afternoon.

Please read up about and get her checked for tongue tie - you may need to do your own research as many health professionals have very little knowledge of the problems it can cause with feeding. Even a slight tie can cause big problems.

A huge well done for getting this far too.

Breast feeding is wonderful and is the most natural, healthiest way to feed a child. However, it is not the only way to feed, something for which we should be grateful as this saves babies from illness and mothers from intolerable stress. Try all of the above suggestions, they may work and I hope they do. If they don't formula is not the food of the devil, will not harm your child. I agree that it is not the best option nutritionally, not when compared to breast milk but it is FINE! As Libby Purves' book says, sometimes you have to be a good enough mother, not a perfect mother. Children are harmed far more by a stressed, distressed mother.

Planner, I'm a bit about what the FC told you about your dd's feeding reflex. Many bottlefed babies still do the searching and reaching with their mouths, and sticking their tongues out, when they are getting hungry. It's one of the earliest feeding cues before they start crying with hunger, and it persists for weeks.

planner - I have never heard of babies losing this reflex. I have never even heard of this reflex. I am an experienced breastfeeding counsellor and I have read, and read, a lot about bf.

Seek a second opinion?

You haven't mentioned biological nurturing - have you tried this?

Agree about investigating for tongue tie.

Hi planner. I can't recall exactly and had a bit of a different situation- my DS was very premature and I had to pump exclusively to begin with but my nipples were initially cracked, raw and bleeding from the electric pump. I had no choice but to continue pumping to maintain supply. I think it took a few weeks to get better. I used a LOT of Lansinoh and soft breast pads. But I didn't change anything I was doing with the pump. Sprry was rushing this morning sorry if I wasn't clear. I still think the toughening up applies.

DS, once he got started, had a very shallow latch and still has. I second the advice to try the rugby ball hold, it helped him put his head back. I also used a breast feeding cushion so I could move him about easily.

planner26 - there is a reflex (the Tonic Labyrinthine Reflex (TLR)) that is utilised during the birth at the back of the head.

If you touch the back a newborn's head they will often tip it back but that often leads to mums thinking baby is refusing the breast if they are holding the baby's head to latch baby on. It is NOT a feeding reflex, if anything it impedes feeding if a mother always holds the back of the head rather than supporting the shoulders/neck.

'The TLR is active during the birth process, where the baby retracts or pushes back its head, flexes or folds in its arms and extends or straightens its legs. If the baby is in a posterior presentation (face up) before birth the head will push into the mother's spine causing great pain. This reflex can be felt in the newborn by simply pushing on the back of the head. The baby will immediately resist and push backwards. At around 3 months the TLR enables the baby to lie on its front and lift up its head. It must be inhibited or switched off, however, before the baby can come up into a crawling position at around 8-9 months. If the TLR is still present at this stage the baby is not able to support its weight by straightening its arms and bringing its knees beneath its body.'

Quote from www.primarymovement.org/background/index.html

If one week's bottle feeding causes this TLR reflex to be switched off then how do exc. ffed babies ever raise their head at tummy time? I think she may have got something confused and I gently suggest the feeding co-ordinator needs some more training before she worries more vulnerable mothers.

Hopefully you can get in contact with another bfing professional who can help locally. May be if you felt up to posting your locality someone reading might know who you could see to get help in your area (obv. just a suggestion - if you don't feel comfortable doing so under your regular name you could name change and post another thread).

I'm sorry to say but my LO is now 6 weeks and things are still painful. We are being treated for thrush but I know the latch is shallow because of the shape of the nipple afterwards. I have been using nipple shields - these are a life saver - using the avent ones. I know there are differing opinions but it has helped me to continue with BF. I don't use them exclusively and she can latch just as well (badly) as she always did.
Like you I have seen BF 'counsellors' who suggest different holds etc but in our case they all say the latch looks fine.
Best of luck.