Should breast and bottle feeding discussions be separate?

[mears]

Following on fron the Aptamil and allergies thread. Davros posted that bottle feeding was not included as a discussion title before - I hadn't actually noticed that. I thought there was a breast feeding one and a bottle feeding one. It has made me think though. Should they be separate to avoid any more arguements about 'breast feeding police' and guilt? Just a thought. Would it make a difference?

Breast and bottle feeding seem fine to me....and infant feeding would be ok, too, but I am glad I am not the only one heartily sick of the term Nazi used with anything to do with feeding, bottle or breast. It is horribly insensitive to Jewish and other minority parents, not to mention German ones. Please don't lets use it!

Sorry I upset anybody with the N word. I used it to poke fun at myself. I just hear it as meaning "Militant", "Zealot" or "Extremist". Nothing to do with the historical Nazis.

What if we called the Topic "Baby Milk"? Would that be ok? Lots of sub-topics on baby feeding would be confusing, I feel.

Well by the looks of things we should keep the discussion title as it is. I think I was just getting to the stage that I didn't want to be accused of making people feel guilty because I promote and support breastfeeding and thought that separate threads might lessen that perception. However, I think that there have been really good points made about keeping breast and bottle feeding together.
Thanks for your thoughts everyone

At first I was surprised to see the two threads merged as usually discussions are quite specific to one issue (eg relating to breastfeeding - latching on) and I assume it?s the same for bottlefeeding. However a lot of people do both and I suppose it doesn?t matter what it is called. But for me breastfeeding is a lot more than just ?food? or ?milk?.

I think that midwives and breastfeeding counsellors here and in general get a lot aggravation from some when they are only trying to help. From what I can see the majority of women want to breastfeed and it puts those who help them in an impossible position ? they want to provide information but are accused of ?preaching?. Often women complain of a lack of knowledge and support ? how is one to provide this adequately for those who want it without some making accusations of being ?militant?. Why are you called militant if you just believe in something? I?ve yet to meet a midwife/counsellor who was in any way aggressive in her attitude. Surely it is better to help someone breastfeed successfully than to keep quiet just to make those who didn?t b/feed for whatever reason (and for whom it is already too late) feel less ?guilty?. Anyway no-one can MAKE you feel guilty that is something you do yourself. Also don?t some of these women want to learn what went wrong and to try again ?forearmed? next time round. And if you genuinely don?t want to breastfeed then you have nothing to feel guilty about have you?

Sorry just feeling a bit hacked off which is silly but I all but stopped posting about breastfeeding because of accusations. I come back on the other day and it all starts again ....

Eulalia - looking through thread on the 'milk' board, there's a huge difference between the type of posts providing help and info, and the 'militant' ones. I think you can easily provide support and facts without making any bottle feeders feel any differently at all. The problem comes when people seem to be basically saying "you're terible because you bottlefeed and don't even try and defend yourself". I know that a lot of people would hate to think they're giving that impression to anyone but sometimes that's how it comes across.

Like if I just gave you facts about my car seat, told you how to use it and told you how much I personally liked it you probably wouldn't care less. But if I went on and on strongly about how great it was and told you that the one you were using was rubbish, you'd probably feel slightly bad about it (or fuming at me!!). I know it's not the same and feeding your baby is an emotive issue but it shows there's a difference between just giving someone help and info and pushing to the extent that they feel bad about their own decision.

I don't agree that no-one can make you feel guilty. Every mum feels guilty about something they do at one time or another, even if they're 100% sure that they're doing the right thing. So when someone goes on and on telling you you're wrong about what you want to do, it does make you feel guilty and apart from ignoring that person, you can't do anything to stop it.

Forgot to say, I definitely don't think anyone should be put off posting by these arguments, just think how you'd feel if someone from the opposite side posted something like you're about to post, but from their viewpoint. If you know it wouldn't disturb you at all, go ahead and post. But if you know it would annoy/upset you if you read the same thing from the other side, think about how other people would feel about your post.

But just where are the posts going on about bottle feeding being 'rubbish', or about bottle feeding mothers being 'terrible'??? Where are the posts which tell people they are 'wrong' in what they want to do??

I see posts which express from a personal point of view how much they enjoy breastfeeding. I see posts which explain why breastfeeding is a worthwhile choice. I see posts which express, from a personal point of view, a determination to breastfeed, and ones which describe what I feel is courage and fortitude in battling against problems.

But if anyone can rustle up more than a tiny handful of posts (or any at all) which say bottle feeding and/or bottle feeding mothers are rubbish/terrible/wrong, then please post a link

I have come across (on other boards) the occasional pig-headed poster who says mothers who bottle feed can't have tried hard enough or something similar, but in 7 years of web-surfing, I'd estimate this has happened about three times!

I still don't understand - if one wants to breastfeed then surely you want to find out as much as possible about it. If you don't want to breastfeed then why on earth would one be reading posts about it? should we put a warning in front of the posts saying "this may offend" Why should talking about something so normal offend people? As tiktok says I have yet to see a post that was nothing more than informative and helpful. Counsellors are only interested in helping those who want to breastfeed, they aren't going to waste their valuable time talking to those who have decided not to.

Believe me I feel guilty about lots of things - it is human nature but I don't feel it because of what someone else has told me to do or not to do. I have got my own mind thank you!

OK lets use an analogy. Take another topic ? smacking. Highly emotive and there are two camps ? those who do, and those who don?t. Has anyone there ever accused another of being a ?Nazi? because they say they think it is wrong to smack their child. No they usually respect each others views and say something like ?I do what works for me?.

I feel guilt when I smack my child... and in fact have just recently stopped doing it (for reasons I won?t go into here) but did do it occasionally for several years and did not hide my head in the sand and say don?t talk about it, it is making me feel guilty. I acknowledged that I was only trying to do the best in the circumstances, that I am not a perfect parent and genuinely admire those who don?t smack for their patience and imagination in finding other ways to discipline their child. I am interested in finding out strategies to deal with my child?s behaviour even though I know through my own weakness I have failed in the past.

So if one feels guilt no matter what it is about, then surely it is better to explore why you feel like that and see if you can learn from it and see if others can benefit from your experience.

.... god I sound like someone?s therapist now but I hope I am making myself clear. Apologies for drifting off the topic ...

Anyway better go - I am neglecting my children now .....!

I noticed this morning that all Tesco's pre-packed fruit and veg have the 'five portions a day' blurb on them, with an eye-catching logo and something about why this is the healthy option.

Now, I don't think I or any of my kids always (ever?) have 5 portions of fruit and veg a day.

I probably feel (a bit) guilty about that, I suppose, but I don't feel that Tesco is 'pressurising' me or saying I am rubbish for not trying to shovel 5 portions a day down their unwilling gobs...still less 'making' me feel guilty!

If my neighbour extols to me how much she likes making fruit salad and enjoys giving her kids vegetables, I don't think she is getting at me for not doing so.

I noticed this morning that all Tesco's pre-packed fruit and veg have the 'five portions a day' blurb on them, with an eye-catching logo and something about why this is the healthy option.

Now, I don't think I or any of my kids always (ever?) have 5 portions of fruit and veg a day.

I probably feel (a bit) guilty about that, I suppose, but I don't feel that Tesco is 'pressurising' me or saying I am rubbish for not trying to shovel 5 portions a day down their unwilling gobs...still less 'making' me feel guilty!

If my neighbour extols to me how much she likes making fruit salad and enjoys giving her kids vegetables, I don't think she is getting at me for not doing so.

whoops. sorry.

I think that the problem arises when a woman asks a question about bottle feeding (and this goes both ways and with many other things on the discussion boards...) and someone thinks an appropriate response is to question the decision and explain why she thinks it's wrong.

So I think a good guideline, just overall, not just here, is to assume that people have already made an informed decision about what they're asking and are asking that particular question because that's where they need help.

If you have strong feelings about it, start another thread. I'm not saying that I dislike debates... I love them! So for my sake, don't stop debating.

Can you provide an example please JJ?

Analogies cannot really be used as one can always decide to start feeding their children more fruit & veg or stop smacking them or whatever. With breastfeeding once you stop that is it, there is no going back. Perhaps this is why midwives/consultants may appear pushy because there is so little time - breastfeeding is best started an hour after birth so no point in pussyfooting about if you are going to be serious about it. So even more reason to make sure that a woman is well informed and given adequate support. I've read posts here from women with babies who are only days old and they are desparate for help and have always been given it in a very practical manner. Again I have to ask why anti-breastfeeding people are reading these 'offending' posts in the first place.

JJ in the debate we are discussing, I think the question came from someone who was successfully breastfeeding who asked if they could give a bottle of formula without causing allergies. I don't think in this situation you could assume a decision was already taken, because it clearly wasn't. And I think, without wishing to offend you, that Mears advice was extremely informed. This is why IMO you can't separate the advice. This person was breastfeeding, was asking about bottlefeeding, and had specific concerns that bottlefeeding might be harmful.

Aloha, she was asking for views on something she had heard about one particular formula. The advice given was so that the woman asking could make an "informed decision" about giving a bottle (she had already decided to do so and, I'm guessing, would have asked for help on expressing if that was what she wanted). I'm just saying let's all assume that we're making informed decisions and go from there.

I do find it weird when people say that formulas are about all the same. Soya? Goats' milk? Organic? Not? Hypoallergenic? Neocate? Nutramigen? I'm fairly certain there would be differences in between the brands. Not as much between formula and breastmilk, to be sure, but it's hard to imagine that people who bottle feed wouldn't find that information useful. The difference between Nutramigen and "regular" formula is a matter of degree. Some must be closer to the Nutramigen side and some must be closer to whole cows' milk. But which ones? "Much of a muchness" leaves a lot to be desired when discussing formula.

I am the person who pointed out that this discussion was originaly called "Breast Feeding" and asked the moderators to change it so I could post on bottle feeding, it definitely did NOT include bottle feeding in the title. It didn't occur to me to just post anyway. I read the last few posts and I agree with JJ. What seems to happen rather often is that, when a question is asked about bottle feeding or forumula, it somehow gets changed into a breast feeding issue. THe discussion doesn't need to be split but the conversations could at least stay on the original breast of bottle question.

It's not going to happen, though, is it, Davros & JJ? I agree it was totally out of order when (for instance) someone asked about a type of formula being best for allergies & someone else said (effectively) "Why don't you breastfeed?". Maybe the 2nd someone said that because they didn't read the post well enough to realise brfeeding wasn't an option, but doesn't matter. These comments will get made.

And don't blame me for the out of order comments; I keep completely out of the bottlefeeding discussions!

But surely in this instance it WAS a breastfeeding issue, as mears says she was already breastfeeding but only wanted to give an occasional bottle of formula. Perhaps there are differences between the brands but it could be that they are so neglibile that they won't make much difference. Sure the marketing people like to say brand X is 'better' but mears is probably saying that at the end of the day they are much the same. Maybe your baby may like the taste of one better but the issue was regarding allergies and there could be a problem with any brand of formula and allergies.

I would keep them together personally. I appreciate that some people get riled when others start ramming their opinions down their throats on everything from feeding to smacking to pocket money.

I guess the point I'd like to make is that posters should give advice appropriate to the question. If they asking a bottlefeeding q then it should be answered in an appropriate way. The mother has chosen to bottlefeed, for whatever reason, and so it is not the right of anyone to try and make her feel guilty for that or to change her mind. If it is a mixed feeding q then by all means give advice on breast feeding if the question warrants it.

I don't think that we can blame Mumsnet for these topics sometimes becoming blurred. We need to be looking toward the people who are posting the unwanted and inflamatory advice/opinions on the threads that are from parents who have made their decision with regards feeding THIER child. After all, this is the MN philosophy "by pooling knowledge and experience, parents make the job of parenting easier. Please bear in mind that issues to do with raising children can be very sensitive and that everyone has the right to make their own choices when it comes to bringing up their kids. As far as possible we would ask you to respect other people's right to choose, even if you disagree with them. After all, we all know how difficult this parenting business can be, and if there's one thing all of us could do with, it's some moral support."

I don't think they should be seperate. I needed advice on both. I mixed fed both my boys (for different reasons) in the early days of breastfeeding. In ds1's case he had one bottle of formula a day until about 6 months0 the rest breast (and once he was pretty much weaned and was cuttign back on milk I dropped the bottle and gave breast milk feeds). With ds2 he had a lot of formula in the first few weeks on top of his breast feeds (he had an undiagnosed infection so was failing to thrive but everyone thought it was my milk- and he was hungry the whole time- to complicate matters we were having a very stressful time- so it could have been my mill iyswim). Once the infection was treated I was able to reduce and finally stop the formula.

But yes- keep them together.....

I have just read through the Aptamil thread. Nowhere could I see anyone saying you ?must? breastfeed. The discussion was very detailed and scientific and perfectly acceptable. Then a couple of people came in and said that they found it hard to read the thread because they weren?t able to breastfeed (due to drugs they had to take for medication). This is of course devastating but does this mean that discussions shouldn?t take place? My son is autistic and I have seen threads about people talking about how clever their children are and what achievements they make ? things which my son isn?t able to do. I don?t tell them to not talk about them even though it hurts me. In any case the original poster WAS someone who was breastfeeding and wanted some advice about a particular brand of formula. I can?t remember where it was but awhile someone did post originally who was told to take certain medication for an illness and a reference was pointed to a list of drugs which could be taken while breastfeeding. This person was about to give up if they hadn?t read this post and gone back to their doctor for a second opinion. I can see that something like this would be upsetting if you have been told that your particular drug isn?t compatible or there is no alternative. But in this case someone was helped which is surely a good thing.

From this point of view maybe the threads should be separate to avoid upsetting people but then again so many people do mix feed - I am afraid we just have to go with the majority which appears to be (on Mumsnet at least) that most breastfeed or at least want advice on how to do it.

Can everyone lighten up a bit and realise that you can?t please everyone all of the time

JJ, well there you go, I think we both took different things out of that original post. I don't see anywhere that she had already given formula, or that breastfeeding or expressing wasn't an option (as she was already successfully breastfeeding), but she was clearly worried about the risks of allergies, which is why Mears posted that in her informed opinion, there could be a risk of triggering allergies with ANY brand of formula, which seemed to me to be a very relevant comment that could be helpful to someone who had specific worries about allergies in her baby, who hadn't yet tried formula, and now might reconsider her next move having had a bit more information. We all say that we want more information (note: not mere opinion), so why is someone criticised for offering it?
I do think all the normal commercially available formulas are much of a muchness. The prescription ones for children unable to tolerate normal formula are a different matter, but presumably you'd then have advice from a dr.

Aloha has grasped the point I was making in the original thread. You cannot assume that an informed choice is being made. The question was in relation to allergies. I was wanting to make sure that an informed choice was being made about introducing formula of any description in an exclusively breastfed baby. Aptamil is not like breastmilk in a bottle. The person posting did not seem to appreciate that point so that was why I gave that info. If, after being informed, the choice was made to introduce a bottle a day - that's fine. At least it is done with all the facts known. It gets a bit wearing to be accused of 'pressurising' women to breastfeed all the time. Time to have a wee rest now... kids home from school.

Aloha has grasped the point I was making in the original thread. You cannot assume that an informed choice is being made. The question was in relation to allergies. I was wanting to make sure that an informed choice was being made about introducing formula of any description in an exclusively breastfed baby. Aptamil is not like breastmilk in a bottle. The person posting did not seem to appreciate that point so that was why I gave that info. If, after being informed, the choice was made to introduce a bottle a day - that's fine. At least it is done with all the facts known. It gets a bit wearing to be accused of 'pressurising' women to breastfeed all the time. Time to have a wee rest now... kids home from school.