Ed Milliband on BBC promoting Aptimil

[weasle]

Sorry if already a thread about this but i couldn't see one.

Ed walks around a tesco and says oh look, that is the formula we are using and points to aptamil, camera does a close up of it. Presumably to show he's a hands on dad, like the photo of DC bottle feeding florence.

On the news thursday night.
here
Link to the lactivist website with links on how to complain about the breach of the code here

tw - we do think the same, but I suspect your idea of 'fact based' info is not mine :) I would want mothers aware of the health impact of using infant formula instead of breastfeeding - not to demonise it, but to ensure that mothers who used formula from choice made an informed decision.

Slogans used by infant formula companies to promote their product include:

• closer to breastmilk
• closer than ever to breastmilk
• now, even closer to breastmilk
• gentle on tiny tummies
• supports your baby's immune system
• easy to digest
• supports baby's natural defences

and so on. These are spurious and formula companies have been told to stop using them but they don't. They are spurious because their meaning is deliberately not clear - 'easy to digest', for instance, yes, compared to what? Iron filings? Or another brand of formula? Or breastmilk? Or what?

Formula companies are not permitted to use pics of mothers snuggling with their babies because it is against the law. This is because using material like this idealises a product whose main competition is breastmilk - this is a public health stance, because in public health terms, it's important more women breastfeed their babies.

Enjoy your cup of tea :)

Have forgone the tea for full fat coke and a cream donught, but my defence I havnt eaten since 12 yesterday as am bloody starving!

I have been thinking about this thread a lot, as well as the other one under 'in the news', and it's been making me mad. Do you know that The Telegraph picked up on this 'story' and quoted 'midwife' - !!! www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/ed-miliband/8165305/Storm-in-a-bottle-as-Ed-Miliband-says-his-baby-has-formula-milk.html And you should see the comments posted on the BBC's Point of View website (google Ed Milliband aptimil and see what comes up). What some people are saying is, I think, reprehensible. It (the wider debate) looks like it's become an attack on FFing. I mean, are some people 'really really upset' about seeing this on the BBC news? If you read the BBC page, I hope you agree with me that some people have completely overreacted.

Midwife - I notice that you have not been back on here to defend your comments, and I like others, sincerely hope you are not a midwife as your attitude helps absolutely no one, not least the people you are meant to be supporting. I suspect it's a daft psueodnym (sic) - I really do hope that your job is not to support new mothers.

Can we also please spare a thought for Justine, Ed's partner? Like I said before, it's none of our damn business how (or why) she feeds her baby formula, and speculating about it and lecturing on the benefits of BFing I don't think helps anyone. What if she's having an immense struggle breastfeeding and needs to supplement? Can you imagine what this debate and all the attention is doing to her (or women in her situation)? What if she's mix feeding? Or, and here's what seems to upset some people, she's decided to FF full-time? She's a smart woman and I'm sure she's made an informed decision and decided what is best for her family, whatever that may be.

We all know that BFing is the best way to feed your child and we are reminded about it at every opportuity (every time we take baby to the clinic, doctors, hospital etc) but you know what, sometimes BFing is an immense struggle, formula is needed, or mothers switch to it - everoyone has to weigh up the pros and consider what's best for their family. I suspect that some anti-formula people out there have been lucky enough to BF without any real problems.

Can I also remind people that FFing isn't always a choice - it certainly wasn't in my case, and to quote another mumsnetter: 'Formula: the lifesaver that dares not speak its name'. I have read so many anti-formula and anti-FFing comments on mumsnet (and on the POV website!) that it really, really pisses me off - they help no one.

Anyway, just wanted to rant, lay into me if you wish, but I really should stop reading Mumsnet because it just makes me so mad sometimes!

"Saying that something exists doesn't mean promoting it."

But (as far as I am aware) he didn't say it exists did he?

"I had friends who didn't, or who stopped sooner, but that is their choice and I respect every woman's right to choose."

Well that's nice for them.

I have freinds who never got to choose.

They tried to bf, and were unable due to lack of support/hpcs with out-dated info etc etc.

IMO funding for BF support needs to improve.

Who can do this?

Well, no one if they are not aware of the issues.
I respect womens right to choose to ff.
I also believe women should be supported if they want to bf.

sorry - should be 'weigh up the pros and cons'. Although you know, that isn't always easy - "hmmm, would I rather have my sanity and spend some quality time with my baby, or would I rather kill myself trying to BF my baby which isn't working at all and making me incredibly depressed?". That was what my choice came down to, even though I thought "but I'm being selfish by wanting to be happy"!

I'm going to make a cuppa now too :)

the borrower - "I respect womens right to choose to ff.
I also believe women should be supported if they want to bf."

Couldnt agree more.

Now I really mut stop posting as have got donut sugar and jam on the keyboard...

I agree the midwife's comments were very poor - showed a lack of sensitivity to the nuances of the the debate and indeed the feelings of mothers who ff.

theborrower - you know, I hardly ever see 'anti-formula' or 'anti-formula feeding' comments on mumsnet. They do exist, but when they are uttered, the poster is always criticised (as was the midwife).

What frustrates me as a frequent poster in these discussions is that I seem unable to get across the idea that 'informed choice' does actually include knowing the evidence for the health effect of infant feeding choices, and that might not be wonderful news. This does not mean that women should be demonised for using formula, or judged, or ostracised.

The lack of support for breastfeeding that's gone back decades now, the criticism if you bf beyond an arbitrary age, the comments about where is and isn't an appropriate place to do it, the woeful pressure to put a baby on formula if there is a problem (perceived or actual) with bf (see several current threads )...it's a wonder anyone breastfeeds beyond the first day! It is a struggle for many women and anyone truly concerned with bf support and experienced at it (eg moi) knows this.

Tiktok - I'm perfectly aware of the benefits of BFing and really really wanted to BF, and so was utterly devastated that we couldn't (she physically couldn't!) and had to use formula from day one, not only because I wanted to BF but because I wanted to do the best for my baby. I immediately felt like a bad mother because I was giving my baby something that I was always being told was inferior and would increase her chances of getting allergies etc (in BFing literature) - but I didn't have a choice. It wasn't so much that I gave up, but more that we didn't ever get it established and I stopped trying so hard, for the reasons mentioned above. I mix feed (Bfing what we can manage, which isn't a lot and mostly FF).

So, I had my baby by EMCS, she was low birthweight and I couldn't BF and had to use formula - everything I'm told that will give her the worst start in life. Great, eh?

Oops, sorry, I'm not getting at you - I'm obviously just touchy at all the info that tells me that formula isn't ideal.

And yes, I agree that there is real lack of support for BFing - I've had all that too.

Still not made that cuppa...

Apologies MoonFaceMamaaaaargh! You said "I respect womens right to choose to ff.
I also believe women should be supported if they want to bf.", not the borrower

OK I soooooooooooooo wish I hadn't googled 'Md Milibnd Aptimal POV'.

I am now seeeeeeeeeething.

theborrower - you're describing a real dilemma, and not so much a dilemma as a paradox.

It's accepted that not to breastfeed is to have a potentially negative impact on infant health. You used the word 'ideal' which I don't think is helpful - bf is just the human norm, and you might as well say conception-after-sexual-intercourse is 'ideal' - see my analogy earlier). This does not mean, by the way, that ff = poisoning, or it leads to certain obesity or anything else people persist in concluding when someone presents this uncontroversial fact.

Now - do we not say this, ever, at all, in order to spare the feelings of mothers who desperately wanted to bf, and formula fed because (as in your case) the baby needed to feed and bf was not 'working'?

Or do we stay honest, to ensure the full information is out there, for the sake of the many mothers-and-babies-still-to-come? So that support for bf will be more forthcoming from people whose job it is to support it, so there will be no unnecessary switching to formula for the wrong reasons (eg when women are told they or their babies cannot bf and it just ain't true - happens all the time) with women being told it doesn't really matter if they bf are not, and they're making a big fuss over nothing, so they can't even grieve for a lost experience.

I think we should be honest, but that does not mean we have to be insensitive or unkind. It does mean that women who did not bf, for whatever reason, may have to accept that they did the best they could at the time, and things still didn't go as they wanted them to....and that's part of parenting, and even people who don't have a section/have a happy bf experience etc etc still have to face other situations of regret and sadness.

Ok, perhaps I'm just too emotional about failed BFing to discuss clearly (and, err, probably look out for a BFing/relactating thread posted from me soon)...

Yes, we should make sure that people have the facts about BFing and FFing, but

The thing with presenting it as "if you don't breastfeed x, y, z..." is that it's presenting breastfeeding as the norm and not breastfeeding has drawbacks. If we only talk of the benefits of breastfeeding then it implies formula is the norm and breastfeeding is something special.

I think the thread with the John Lewis bottlefeeding area was more suprise that there needed to be separate feeding areas for breast and bottle rather than shock that ffers would want to feed in a quiet area.

theborrower - I have never come across any leaflet where it is stated that 'by not breastfeeding your child is x times more likely to get x, y, and z. I know my breastfeeding and childcare literature - I actually read it and keep it and have a small historical collection :)

If you have an example of this - on line will do - let me know. That sort of personalisation ('your child') is a step too far for most health promoters. What you sometimes find is 'a baby who is not breastfed is x times more likely to...' which I think is more acceptable, though it's rare. It is not the same as even hinting that 'you are giving your child arsenic', and it does not help your argument to bring crazy exagerrations into it, really it doesn't.

I don't know what you mean by 'a wider context'. What is that?

The 'ff space in John Lewis' was not unkind - you are reading far too much into things :(

Yes, there are idiotic and insensitive posts on the POV website, but if we are counting up 'strikes' breastfeeding mothers get far more knocks there, as on many talkboards!

I think all mothers should be treated kindly and sensitively. Ff mothers' experiences sometimes make them uniquely sensitive to messages about breastfeeding. This should not be a reason to avoid letting mothers in general have information and health-related facts about infant feeding.

The boy is in bed, so I am back, though things have moved on somewhat...

I do think the JL thread, wilst not unkind at all, is an example of how some want to make FF 'difficult' in order to promote BF though. Though I agree 100% that many people were just suprised that there were two seperate areas, some were blatently cheesed that there WAS a formula area, full stop. I suspect this is what theborrower is referring to?

Tiktok - I am not sensitive to the BF message. I was irritated by the way the message was forced on me, and the distinct lack of formula options informations, wayyyyyy before I even had Alf!

TW - the JL thread did not have people cheesed off about a sep. formula area, did it? There was discussion about why 2 areas, inc people who wondered why breastfeeding needed to be separate....but maybe I have remembered it wrong.

You were irritated even before you had a baby, TW? You felt breastfeeding messages were 'forced' on you? Why did you not just say 'please don't talk to me about breastfeeding' if it bothered you that much. What sort of info would you have liked to have, presented in what way?

Genuinely curious, here!

Curious is OK, but Think we will have to agree to disagree on the undertones of the JL thread tiktok!

I got irritaed whislt I was pregnat, though 1) I am an irritable person and 2) I may been under the influence of a hormone of two!! That said I remember my forst booking in appointment - poster after poster, leafelt after leafelt 'This is how to bond with your baby', 'this is what is right', and so on and so on. I got the 'Are you BFing' bit from the midwife (why could they not say 'hav you thought about feeding yet' or similar?).

I was so heavily bombarded with 'BF is what good mums do' type messages thoughout my pregnancy that I never really dared ask about botles or combine feeding. I think I may have asked once and got havily shot down actually.

Again, I have NO issue with the promoton of BF OR its many benefits, I just think that for first time mums like me who literally diddnt hav a single clue how to care for a baby, a little more detail about ALL feeding options would have been nice!

Just to re-join the debate, for extremely valid medical reasons, which I won't bore you all with, I was unable to exclusively breast feed DD and had to give up at 6.5 weeks. When I was pregnant I knew I would have problems and tried to educate myself and prepare as much as possible to I could give BF the best possible shot. And it was very difficult. MWs were either unwilling or unable to help me - either by addressing my particular medical situation, or by providing me with accurate information concerning safe FF. One MW eventually gave me a leaflet on FF saying that to do so went against all her natural instincts. Thanks - goes against all MY natural instincts to let my child starve. Same MW when I was about to give up (on medical advice BTW) emailed me with a whole load of information about the continued benefits to a child's immune system of BF. Not helpful. At the hospital I gave birth in , they hand out the "Best Beginnings" breast feeding DVD, which makes many claims concerning the benefits of BF but in a way that indicates that FF disadvantages both your child's health and makes it difficult to achieve such a close bond with your baby. It reduced me to floods of tears - some very kind people here on MN helped me through what was a very hard day. I'm not for one second saying that BF should not be promoted, but surely good information re FF should be available too? When you come to FF, you can be flying solo without a clue whether what you are doing is correct or not. That can't be good - particularly for the baby. If it is true that FF babies are more likely to be admitted to hospital with gastroenteritis than their BF counterparts, could that be due to poor FF hygeine? In which case information on safe preparation is key. In fact, how many of the health problems a FF baby is more likely to experience in the first year due to unsafe preparation, rather than the consumption of formula per se? Just a thought - haven't looked into it - anyone out there know? Breast feeding counsellors will give practical advice re BF, including watching you BF - why not the same for FF? Someone who can watch you prepare and give a bottle and give appropriate advice? BF literature states how BF aids bonding. Well, why not give advice concerning how FF can be made into a bonding experience? No reason why you can't have skin-to-skin when giving a bottle (might seem obvious that you can, but when you are knackered and frazzled and struggling, it doesn't always occue to you). I found FF much more intimate than BF - likely due to the difficulties I was having with BF but also because when giving a bottle my baby and I could stare into each other's eyes. I found this very moving and I will always cherish those moments. As a FF through necessity, I believe that FF is demonised and I feel guilt every time someone (friend, family, HCP) asks whether I am BF. I do not wish to have to justify my situation by going into all my medical details. My baby who is now 9 weeks has several health problems with severe allergies and one person has gone so far as to tell me that it is all my fault because I am not exclusively BF. Thanks.
I don't know what the answer is. I believe that BF is best. I believe that BF rates should increase in this country. I believe that women should be helped to initiate and maintain BF. And I don't think formula shoud be advertised - we all know it exists and we all know where to get it. But as someone who couldn't it is very very difficult to face all this information, all these posters, be asked all the time whether you intend to or are BF. As I say, I don;t know what the answer is, but making those of us who FF feel like rubbish mothers can't be the answer.

cardamomginger - thats just awful, and very similar to my experience. :(

so sorry tw and

I don't disagree with anything you've said, cardamom - there is absolutely no excuse for midwives and others not enabling safe, happy, confident, informed and satisfying formula feeding, and it makes me cross because it is their job to do it.

It should perfectly possible to enable breastfeeding, to promote breastfeeding, to encourage more mothers to bf, without making ff women feel as if they're being judged.

Sometimes, this can go wrong, I know. Feeding - however it's done - can bring up sensitivities. It's a completely different order of experience than, say, changing a nappy or choosing a pram. But we have to find a way, perhaps with better training, to ensure that mothers know breastfeeding is an option (for most mothers, anyway) and to know something of how to do it, and basically, to enable women to do it. Formula feeding does not have to be 'enabled' in quite the same way.

Also cardomom, there is evidence that ff does have risks, independent of whether or not it is hygienically prepared. I can give you chapter and verse on this, but it will not help - it just makes people defensive. There is no need for you to be defensive. You were let down.

I hope you have made a complaint about this, because the maternity services need to know.

not having a go at you tiktok - sorry if it came across like that. i think we're probably pretty much in agreement. I would be interested in any research you can come up with re risks of ff - could you pm me with any references? i'm all in favour of facts, high quality research and evidence-based practice. whilst i agree that ff does not need to be 'enabled' in the same way that bf does, ff safely is still a skill and those skills need to be taught. it seems that there is less room for bf to be conducted in an 'unsafe' manner - off the top of my sleep-deprived head, i can't think how it could be conducted unsafely, as long as mum doesn't have prescription or recreational drugs that pass through her breast milk. but ff has many opportunities to be carried out in an unsafe manner - wrong formula, poor hygeine, water not hot enough, too strong or too weak a mix, etc. all arguments for better and more information on ff. whilst ff should, perhaps, not be promoted, safe ff should be. quite how this is achieved without people being up in arms about how promoting safe ff is in fact promoting ff and should not be allowed, i don't know.

Oh, and I haven't made a complaint. Several things to complain about, but what with DD's allergy problems and several postnatal nasties that I am trying to get fixed, I just don't have the energy or the time! And so things slide and services don't improve.....

cardamomginger - i'm all in favour of facts, high quality research and evidence-based practice. whilst i agree that ff does not need to be 'enabled' in the same way that bf does, ff safely is still a skill and those skills need to be taught.

Amen :)