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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Is Aptamil less likely to cause allergies?

76 replies

barlow · 19/08/2003 12:52

I am breast feeding but would like to give the occasional bottle of forumula as sometimes I find expressing enough in order to go out and miss a feed extremely tedious. I have heard from a couple of people that Aptamil is best but they can't tell me exactly why and where they heard it. Any views on this?

OP posts:
jasper · 25/08/2003 22:58

Dinny I am absolutley appalled that something I wrote here would make you feel crap so please accept my sincerest apology . There is no way this was intended. Did you read my earlier post? My first two babies were fed mostly on formula. I just could not get past the sore stage of breastfeeding, despite needing no convincing breast milk was better for my baby than formula. BUT breast FEEDING was frankly doing my head in so in the great scheme of things I made the decision based on what was best for the whole family. I am COMPLETELY sympathetic to those for whom breastfeeding doesn't work out. I have said this repeatedly on mumsnet and for what it's worth my only contribution to the mumsnet book was something to general effect that sometimes breastfeeding isn't all it's cracked up to be!!
Having said all that I am always keen to give support and encouragement to bf to anyone who asks, for the precise reason that I understand the difficulties but also that I have finally ( with baby#3)come to understand the joy .

But why should you feel crap about it? Or worse, guilty?
I really don't get it. I had fantastic support in my first two attempts at breastfeeding by friends and professionals who were 100% pro but have never ever come a cross this mythical breastfeeding "lobby"(other than on a couple of wacky non British websites) who have the power to make anyone feel guilty.
I am really shocked to hear that some of you here have come across would be bf supporters who succeed in actually puting you off breastfeeding or making you feel guilty/crap for not succeeding. Once again Dinny I feel mortified and misunderstood you put me in this category and hope this has made it a bit clearer what I meant. It was in response to the way the thread was going about looking for scientific studies to support breastfeeding. I could have just as easily said you don't need a scientific study to show that mothers like me who were going slowly mad with bf difficulties are happier when they stop.

robinw · 26/08/2003 07:36

message withdrawn

jasper · 27/08/2003 00:08

robinw I have not gone the other way as you put and still think noone should "be made" whatever that means to feel guilty.

I completely understand why not bf is best for some. The point is I didn't "get it" the first two times. Now I do understand what all the ( positive!)fuss was about
Guilt has never come into it.

mears · 27/08/2003 09:15

The promotion of breastfeeding does not have the purpose of making women feel guilty. Jasper is an excellent example of someone who did not find it a wonderful experience at all until baby number 3. The support from mumsnet helped her a lot. Now she is criticised for saying how much she is enjoying it. Who is making who feel guilty now? The negativity breastfeeding mothers encounter is on a per with those who bottle feed. No-one should feel guilty about making a choice that is personal to them.

aloha · 27/08/2003 10:31

Jasper, I think your posts were entirely reasonable, fair and honest, if it helps. You can't 'make' someone feel guilty IMO. Breast is best in 99% of situations and to suggest otherwise just to make people feel better is both wrong and patronising IMO. Both breastmilk and the action of breastfeeding appear to have quite powerful benefits to babies. I think Mears' point about 'informed choice' is the really vital thing - along, of course, with proper support and help with breastfeeding which many (most?) women don't get. As in all things, if you know the facts you can make a better decision for you. In cases where lifesaving drugs will cross into the milk with harmful effects on the baby, or where the mother is HIV positive, there are excellent reasons not to breastfeed, obviously. Nobody should promote breastfeeding to women in these cases.

Crunchie · 27/08/2003 13:53

What amazes me here and in all these discussions (and I read, but don't often post) is the varied ways that women are treated. On this thread alone one woman said midwives were constantly trying to 'top-up' her baby and therefore promoting bottle feeding, and on teh other hand someone else was made to feel guilty for not breast feeding. I find it interesting that it all seems to depend on the midwife/health professional you get and their attitude.

Personally 1st time around I had a prem baby (27weeks) and expressed as much as I could, I even ended up on drugs to restimulate my milk production. But it took me 20 mins to get about 2oz, and I couldn't keep it up. My dd also didn't learn to breast feed, she was too weak and it was too hard as my milk wasn't plentiful. Therefore I ended up bottle feeding. 2nd time I was determined to try breast feeding only to get midwives in hospital looking at me strangly when I didn't want to 'top-up' my dd. I got little/no support and I had just had a c-section and could bearly lift her up. If I had bottle fed they would have taken her away for a few hours to give me some rest (as they did with all the other babies, I was the only one breastfeeding in my ward) I ended up in such agony and used nipple shields for a few days, on the advice of one midwife, only to be told by another that I may as well bottle feed as the baby won't learn to feed! Finally I exclusivly fed for 6 weeks and mixed fed (one feed a day) for another 4 months. I finally stopped BF at 8 months.

From my experience breast is best if you can, but best of all is a mum who is allowed to feel confident and supported in all her descisions, not made to feel guilty from both sides.

jasper · 27/08/2003 14:23

aloha, thank you and yes it does help.
Mears you know more than most exactly where I am coming from and thanks for explaining my point better than I could
You are 100% correct that help from mumsnet played a part, particularly this thread .

aloha · 27/08/2003 15:27

Just want to say, again, that clearly there are situations where it is impossible for various reasons to breastfeed successfully - mainly, I think because women aren't given enough support and help and encouragement. I was basically told my ds was starving and that I had to give him formula. After he'd had it a breastfeeding counsellor told me he would have been OK with the colostrum, but it was a bit late then! It's hard to have confidence when hospital staff undermine it - as in Crunchie's case and mine. And I'm sure if your baby is very prem it must be almost impossible to have enough milk. a friend of mine donated to a milk bank for prem babies and I wish I'd done the same.

JJ · 28/08/2003 08:34

I think that the issue of mothers who feel guilty regarding breastfeeding should be addressed. Breastfeeding is now seen as a medical issue and thinking of it from this view, the lack of available patient information is appalling. An informed decision requires that the information to make a decision be easily available (I'm a huge fan of pamphlets and the like).

This is the policy (with whatever appropriate corrections-- this is just gleaned from my memories and breastfeeding discussions...) I'd like to see regarding breastfeeding (this policy from someone like the La Leche League, who seem pretty reasonable as an organization and have the best information I've found on breastfeeding with allergies):

While we agree that in most circumstances that breastmilk is the ideal milk for a child, we believe that the unqualified mantra of "breast is best" can cause more harm than than good. Although adequate information is provided on the benefits of breastfeeding, there is not enough information readily available on:
-medical contraindications
-postnatal health problems and their effects on breastfeeding
-common medicines and their safety
-practical as well as emotional support available.
We would like to briefly explain our position on each of the above.

Medical Contraindications:
Not all women should breastfeed. There are clear contraindications to breastfeeding as well as situations where the health of the mother comes before any possible benefits to the child. It is in the best interest of professionals and prospective mothers to discuss this information beforehand. It would also be helpful for prospective mother to have ready access to information on what conditions can and cannot be supported during breastfeeding. Our position is that many mothers who feel they cannot breastfeed because of a chronic condition are able to do so but do not, due to their doctors' lack of knowledge and that many who medically should not breastfeed feel unnecessarily guilty. Neither is good for promoting breastfeeding.

Postnatal Health Concerns:
Leaving breastfeeding related issues to the last point, it is true that postnatal women have a variety of concerns which effect breastfeeding. One of the major illnesses of the postnatal period is postnatal depression. There are many antidepressants which can be safely used while breastfeeding and most women can be treated while continuing to breastfeed. However, it is important to realize that the mother's health is of paramount importance and the consequences of not successfully treating PND outweigh any benefits for both mother and infant that continuing breastfeeding might confer. It is also advisable to give particular advice to women who smoke and/or drink alcohol about how best to proceed with breastfeeding.

Common medicines and their safety:
Many times mothers neglect their own health and comfort based upon misinformation about the safety of common medicines (eg ibuprofen, allergy medicines). An available pamphlet about the most commonly used medicines and their safety in breastfeeding would be helpful, as would ready access to information about other medications and their effects. Providing the first point of contact at your practice with a reference book such as "Medications and Mothers' Milk" by Thomas Hale would be immensely helpful.

Support
Many women who attempt to breastfeed fail through lack of practical and emotional support. Health care professionals who recommend breastfeeding to prospective mothers must discuss the both the practical and emotional support available before the baby is born. Practical support is most necessary while baby and mother are in the hospital and in the week after the birth or until breastfeeding is established. Emotional support is necessary throughout breastfeeding, no matter whether the mother has a child of 2 weeks or two years. It is also worth mentioning here the discouraging effect of a common fallacy: that breastfeeding does not hurt if it is done correctly. While it is necessary to thoroughly check for other causes, sometimes breastfeeding does hurt, even if being done correctly and there is no illness. Failure to breastfeed due to lack of support should be seen as a failure of the health professionals responsible for the mother and child's health and not as a failure of the mother.

What we recommend for all healthcare professionals who are responsible for pregnant women is this:
In the first discussion of breastfeeding with the mother, take a full medical history to determine if breastfeeding is appropriate. If it is and the mother makes the decision to breastfeed, in a future visit, closer to the time of birth, discuss the logistics of breastfeeding in her situation. First, thoroughly discuss any information particular to her situation (allergies, smoking, possible PND). Give her information to deal with common concerns and challenges (for example a list of common problems and treatments: mastitis, cracked nipples, etc as well as when to seek medical attention, eg for thrush). Also, talk about what to expect from her hospital in terms of support for breastfeeding and who will be her contact for practical support during each stage of breastfeeding. Provide a list of local organizations and websites for emotional support.

-

or something like that, but changing any inaccuracies and having a kicker as a closing paragraph.

Davros · 28/08/2003 08:51

i'm confused. Yet again we're onto breast feeding from a question about formula milk. ALL the support, information and pressure that I have ever encountered is to get mothers to BF. I did find, though, that female relatives were not keen on BFing which I just put down to jealousy over the control of the baby. If you don't BF there is nothing, even if the reason is a medical one. No support, no information and mostly no understanding. I don't and never have felt guilty about bottle feeding and not just because I have a medical condition but I've certainly never had any support, unlike when I BFd my first baby. Some bottle feeders do feel guilty, but I think the vast majority just make the decision, get on with it and think "s+d you" if they come across someone judgmental. This will be unpopular, but I have to say that IMHO bottle feeding is wonderful, if only they could make a synthetic formula that had all the properties of good breastmilk (unlike my own) .

JJ · 28/08/2003 09:03

Davros, that is an excellent point! There must be some formulas which are better than others, best ways of formula feeding, what to expect, etc. You're right -- it's wholly irresponsible to tell people who can't breastfeed for whatever reason something along the lines of "Well, too bad, off you go then. Pick up something at the supermarket on your way home." (Not implying that anyone else did this, but admitting that I did. And I don't have anything against formula use, even for those who simply prefer not to try to breastfeed.) More information about all aspects of feeding an infant would be helpful.

(I've got to pay my bills... it's so hard to be online without checking mumsnet!)

aloha · 28/08/2003 10:18

I just don't agree that there is lots of support and information about breastfeeding about. I did all my own research on internet sites and books and even then there were lots of things I didn't know at the time like the likelihood that my milk would take a day or two longer to come in after a c-section, that weightloss in the baby was to be expected and that colostrum would be fine for a baby's first few days. Not knowing any of this - despite all my research - made for some very upsetting times in hospital. Until I saw a breastfeeding counsellor after four days and was very upset, did anyone offer me any help or informed advice on feeding my baby apart from to insist on my giving him a bottle of formula and telling my I was starving him (which was really nice to hear). So much for the breastfeeding nazis!

As for bottle feeding, well having done it myself, all commercial formulas are much of a muchness and everything you need to know IMO is in the tin. Plus every single baby book including the ones you get free from the NHS when pregnant and when seeing the HV has information on preparing bottles etc. Plus my house was chock full of feeding and weaning charts that came from babymilk manufacturers that seemed to come through my door practically every day.
I was in Kings for over a month before I had my ds and I hardly saw anyone breastfeeding their new babies. There were bottles everywhere. I was so suprised I actually asked a midwife about it. Yes, you can mixed feed, but I don't think this is what was happening on the ward. And this is a Babyfriendly Hospital where supposedly everyone has been bullied into breastfeeding by the masked avengers of the so-called breastfeeding mafia. I just don't see it.
In other countries breastfeeding rates top 90per cent, so it can be done. More support, better maternity pay and leave would help IMO.
I though Mears' link further down to a very good article about guilt was excellent.

mears · 28/08/2003 10:26

Fabulous post JJ. There are points in there that are covered within Baby Friendly Hospitals - discussion should take place antenatally about breastfeeding and information should be sought about medical history etc. There is information about drugs and breastmilk but it is rather bulky. Perhaps a leaflet with simple medication should be issues with contra-indicated drugs too.

Mothers are given bottle feeding information where I work Davros. The breast feeding mothers though complain of lack of support because midwives often bottle feed babies during the night to allow mothers to sleep. The complaint from women in our unit is that bottle feeding mothers get more support than they do.

I think mums may be unfortunate in coming across unsupportive professionals whatever way they choses to feed.

SamboM · 28/08/2003 10:32

mears just out of interest is there such a thing as a baby-unfriendly hospital? What happens in hospitals that are not designated baby-friendly? It seems a ludicrous label to me. What about a mother-friendly hospital? That would be good.

mears · 28/08/2003 10:40

Actually mother friendly initiative is on it's way I believe.

Hospitals have actually been baby unfriendly in the past with outdated practices and routines.

Here is some more info here

aloha · 28/08/2003 11:29

Also, flicking through a copy of Junior today (I've got a feature in it!) I noticed a fullpage ad from Milupa all about LCPs in breastmilk and formula, which shows they do advertise if they can pass the ad off as information.

GeorginaA · 28/08/2003 11:42

mears - where do you work? Because next child I want you as my midwife

Davros · 28/08/2003 13:35

I can only assume that the prevalence of and supportive environment for BFing must depend on where you live, the usual postcode lottery! If anyone wants evidence that bottle feeders DO NOT feel that they get information and support you should read the other thread, I even had to ask the Mumsnet moderators to change this Discussion title to include bottle feeding as the title only includeed breast feeding!!

mears · 28/08/2003 13:37

I thought there was a breastfeeding thread and a bottle feeding discussion title. Going to start a new thread

Eulalia · 28/08/2003 22:31

Have just skimmed through this thread. I used to post regularly about breastfeeding but haven't had time lately.

I saw your post jj about contraindications and thought you would be interested to see this You can still breastfeed

robinw · 29/08/2003 08:10

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wobblymum · 29/08/2003 11:58

robinw - I totally agree with you!!! I have seen quite a few people on here arguing, partly with me, about how bottle feeding is so bad but where were they (or people like them) in the 2 weeks I was in hospital. Couldn't phone NCT etc (not spending £'s on payphone!!!)! Where were they when I was getting s**t midwives who'd obviously never heard of putting a baby straight to the breast, who would only give me one piece of toast (10pm) after birth (7pm), when I'd been in labour all day and hadn't felt like eating before (so in the night I was too shattered from lack of food to realise about bfing problems)? Where were all the BF Nazis when I was constantly asking midwives for help because dd wouldn't eat enough and all they would do was leave it a few hours and pass it on to someone else, who would do the same?

Fair enough, support breastfeeding if you want, but I get angrier by the day thinking about the problems I had breastfeeding and how people who don't appreciate those problems just ignore your feelings. After all, there are people out there who believe that formula is better, but they wouldn't be tolerated if they criticised breastfeeding mums.

Lastly, not trying to get at people on this board!!! There are loads of people on here who did their best to help me when I was having problems, and it helped a bit, and I'm really grateful, but I now realise that the time help was really needed was in the first week, and after that the whole thing became pretty hopeless.

Just like you naturally tolerate people who don't want to be Jewish but you wouldn't tolerate real Nazis, you should tolerate people who want to feed differently to you, but not people who attack the other side just to support their own.

wobblymum · 29/08/2003 12:07

mears - thanks for that link. Have found out that none of the 3 places you are advised to go if you are having a baby in Cornwall (where I live) are mentioned on there! Does that mean they're all baby-unfriendly? IME I'd have to say yes. So what are you supposed to do? Move 150 miles until you have your baby? And it's not just Cornwall with that problem!

Please, please, PLEASE can everyone who wants to be a breastfeeding 'Nazi' come down to the Royal Cornwall Hospital and do their worst (or best?)!

musica · 29/08/2003 13:13

wobblymum, you've made a very good point - ds had problems with breastfeeding, and although I did feed him eventually for 13 months, it was always supplemented by bottles, because I never had very much milk, and no matter how much I tried to feed him, he was never very interested. I put this down to the hospital experience - like you, I'd been in labour all day, hadn't eaten since the previous day, and by breakfast the following day was ravenous! And expected to feed the baby. But not only that, the nurses took him off to a nursery, gave him a bottle to 'settle' him, and then gave no help when I tried to get him to feed - he wasn't interested, and neither were they! They continued to give him bottles to 'keep up his blood sugar', and the poor thing had hourly blood tests for his blood sugar. Eventually someone did help, but this was 48 hours afer his birth, during which time he had no milk from me at all.

If someone had taken the time earlier on to give advice, I'm sure I would have felt more confident in feeding, and had he not been given bottles at that stage, I believe he would have been more interested! Incidentally I wasn't asked about the bottles - only found out when I read my notes afterwards!

Dinny · 06/09/2003 23:04

Sorry to rear the ugly head of the breast/bottle thread, but just wanted to say - Jasper, I apologise for jumping down your throat about BFing (ages ago on this thread). I hope to follow your example and breastfeed next time... (hopefully!). I think I will always be hyper-sensitive about the whole topic. Sorry if I sounded harsh. Dinny x