I don't understand why Formula once made up with water over 70 degrees can't then be stored in the fridge. Anyone help?

[OnEdge]

I don't see the danger in doing this, what am i missing?

You aren't missing anything.

It can be!

But not a lot of people know.

Most people are obsessed with the incorrect thought that the most important thing is to make it fresh - and they incorrectly use cold water.

Now it is is safer to make with water which is 70 degrees and use straight away - and that is because milk is the perfect breeding ground for bacteria and in a normal kitchen you really can't guarantee that your sterilisation and preparation have eliminated all bacteria and that you haven't introduced any.

(It is also important to cool premade milk as quickly as possible and store in a fridge at less than 4 degrees.)

Useful links:

Dept of Health leaflet.

WHO leaflet.

My all time favourite from the Irish click on "guidance note 22".

One point though - the water should be 70 and not hotter. Hotter than 70 may damage nutrients in the milk.

If you have no thermometer then the Food Standards Agency have done experiments (as have I ) and 1 litre of water boiled and left for thirty minutes is 70 degrees.

This is why the instructions say boil kettle leave for half an hour.

They should be saying 70 degrees but they can't be fucking bothered to pass on vital safety info don't.

Thank you Tabouleh. This is what I thought too. I guess they don't want to complicate matters and confuse the poor old general public. I didn't realise that using water that's hotter than 70 could damage the milk though. They should tell you that.

Oh thanks for that!

My old HV said that you shouldn't do that. She said that you should put the boiling water in a bottle, leave it to cool and then heat the water as needed then add formula! Although that doesn't make sense to me as the water wouldn't be hot enough to sterilise the formula, or does it not need to?

That's complete bolleaux IMO. So many people think that. But it's the powder that needs to be sterilised, not the water!

There's a lot of us sheep around aren't there?

gaelicsheep - Yes IMO the guidance about the 70 degrees should be explicit - this is hot enough to kill bacteria within the formula powder but not too hot to damage the nutrients etc.

WanderingSheep - sadly most HCPs don't know or understand the guidance. It sickens me to be honest.

Powdered infant formula is not sterile and that is why it should be made with hot (70 degree) water.

It can contain some very nasty bacteria which gets into the formula and/or isn't elimated in the production process.

It can lead to very serious or fatal illness.

But that is rare (I often get accused of scare mongering on this topic).

Premature babies, immune compromised babies and newborns are at highest risk.

Personally for me, although it was a small risk, having understood the guidelines and the reasons for them with BF having gone "wrong" I wanted to make FF according to the guidelines.

When DS was a bit older I used to make 3 bottles in advance in the morning and then 2 in the evening - one for a dream feed and the other for the morning feed.

Out and about I used cartons (although you can see the leaflets for using a flask option).

Its fucking impossible in RL though innit. Back to the drawing board - was using boiling water to kill the nasty little bastards. I'm tempted to use cartons but because of the Lysteria hysteria i can't bring myself to store the unused half in the fridge and then use it, so it is a carton a feed. Next research is where can i find the cheapest cartons.

So the ones I have just made with boiling water tonight and cooled rapidly with cold water and bunged in the BACK of the fridge, will not harm her but will not be as nutritious as they should ??

Its so complicated at 03.00 when contact lenses won't let lids close properly and you are standing on slugs in bare feet and the baby is SCREAMING her head off, which then wakes the 16 month old who then has to watch shrek to go back to sleep which needs fast forwarding to the start past the trailers....... and usless twatto DH sleeps through it all........ and then walks round the house yawning very insensatively the next day... having had 10 UNINTERUPTED hours sleep Its all just too much, ought to just breast feed.

Yeah, that's what I mean - if the water is only baby temperature warm (when you've reheated it after it's cooled) it's not hot enough to sterilise the powder, whereas 70 degrees would be?

X posted

I used cartons for out and about as well. I'm now thinking about poor DS though, and all the nutrients he missed out on when I blasted his formula powder into oblivion with boiling water. You kind of figure the hotter the better as far as bugs go don't you. I didn't think there would be anything left in formula that couldn't survive being boiled tbh.

DD's being breastfed, so as long as I don't express and shake the milk (apparently) she should be OK on the nutrients front.

I used cartons at night too OnEdge. Sleep is too precious to be hanging around waiting for kettles to boil and cool. Although now I know for sure about the 70 degrees thing, I would probably go back to making up in advance and reheating if I were doing it again.

OnEdge - you can make them in advance and store as in RL making fresh can be v.difficult if no routine etc.

Obviously if they are in the fridge you'll prob want to warm them in a jug to feed - or just use a carton at night.

Why don't you want to keep a carton in the fridge for less than 24 hours?

Clean hands and scissors before opening and store in a clean fridge.

Don't be beating yourself up about not BFing. .

Sorry x- posted!

Yes, lots of sheep !

I just don't know how I can wait 30 minutes with the baby screaming. Everytime I try and switch off, i get worked up, must be instincts/hormones, it just makes me want to run about doing things fast, so sitting waiting 30 minutes is just a nightmare.

There was a lady on a thread last night who suggested adding boiling water to cooled boiled water to acheive the temperature immediately, would this be safe ?

WAIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY NOT SHAKE THE BREAST MILK

NOW WHAT THE FUCK HAVE I DONE TO MY POOR BABE ????

(I express about one feed worth a day)

I did something like that, I can't remember what now. I think I might have experimented with keeping cool boiled water in bottles in the fridge and getting the mix of boiled and cooled just right to get to what I thought was 70 degrees or more. I don't know how accurate it was though. If someone had been able to confirm for sure that storing the stuff was safe, I'd have definitely done that instead. I was bottle feeding on demand, alongside a bit of breast and EBM so the guidelines were a complete nightmare.

Blimey, I got to go and clean the fridge now

my head is spinning with this now, I am going to dream feed some non nutritious but safe milk and try and get some sleep.Off to Tesco tomorrow for cartons.

On Edge - YOU CAN MAKE THEM IN ADVANCE - go and look at my first link.

Say at 8am boil the kettle, set timer for 30mins make 3 bottles, cool in sink/with ice pack thing and put in a cool fridge.

Then when baby ready for feed boil kettle - water into a jug and get bottle out of fridge and warm it up.

Some people suggest using a smaller volume of hotter water and adding cooler.

Personally - I would need to see the evidence on that.

As I said, there are concerns that very hot water can destroy nutrients, also the smaller volume of hot water may not be enough to dissolve the powder.

You could work out how to "make" 70 degree water if you wanted - eg with boiling and cool boiled - but you'd need to experiment etc.

Of course in RL you can only make fresh if you've a good idea when baby wants fed - as of course you have 30 mins to wait plus cooling time.

(One thing to add is you can make a little in advance and not put in the fridge as you have 2 hours to use from when you first make it - should mention this 2 hours on the packet).

OnEdge - don't panic! My DS survived to tell the tale - I never knew about not shaking until a few weeks ago. I can't remember what thread it was on, I think it was one where I got into a huge argument over a different issue. It's something to do with breaking up the long chain fatty acids or something.

Found it. It's a huge thread with some unpleasantness in the middle. Here's the link that foxytocin posted don't shake the milk

oh i get that. i am thinking about breast feeding her again. it really is less hassle. one of the reasons i stopped was the amount of time it took(ihave 3 under 4) but once ive faffed and fucked about with kettles and milton and fridges there isn't much in it

really am off to bed now. thanks for your help everyone.

My logic in using half 70c, half cooled and boiled is firstly it brings it down to drinking temp and secondly, harking back to my science Alevels, vitamins are subject to being broken down by many things and two of those are heat and large amounts of water as the first catalyses oxidation and the second provides more opportunities for that to take place. By minimising the opportunity for oxidation whilst the catalyst (hot water) is present you in theory preserve more nutrients. Then you add cooled water to bring it down to temp/make up the feed to the correct concentration. At a cooler temp the larger volume of water doesn't matter so much as the reaction is hugely slower.

If the powder hasn't dissolved properly I add more hot as removing the bacteria from the powder is more important in the grand scheme of things.

DD 19weeks is currently bf (not easier as she feeds every 1.5-2hrs!), DS 3.5yrs was ff with bottles made in the correct way with 30min cooled water but then cooled some more and put in fridge :-)

I have too much time on my hands and have recently been experimenting to see how quickly water cools to 70 degrees if you pour boiling water straight into the bottles.

Using the Tommee Tippee closer to nature 260ml bottles I have found it takes approx 1 min per oz for the water to cool from boiling to just over 70 degrees.

This is suspiciously neat but I have rerun the experiment a couple of times and it seems to hold true.

I only need to make one bottle a day for DDs 7pm feed so just add 7oz of boiling water to the bottle then leave for 7 mins before adding powder.

Totally agree cartons are the only way to cope with night feeds. I also give DD half a carton at 2am then bring the rest of the carton down to put in the fridge at 2.30ish once she has resettled. The remainder of the carton is then used for a feed later in the day.