Breast feeding - couple of quick (probably thick!) questions

[Elf1981]

I'm due next month and am going to try breast feeding. To keep DH involved, we've also planned to express. I know I should get a load of information from the midwife once baby arrives, but though I'd get a heads up and ask a few questions:

1. After expressing, how long can milk be kept in the fridge?
2. How long can milk be frozen for?
3. Is it okay to substitue with formula milk once feeding established or should it be purely breast milk?

The third question comes from the idea that bubs is due in October, and in Dec it's DH b/d so my mum has said she'd look after baby for us to have a night out (depends on how I feel at the time I guess!) so I'm wondering if I'll have to express like mad or whether formula milk can be used instead.

4. How common is it for people not being able to breastfeed?

Any answers greatly appreciated, I'm a bit new to this and a bit naive!!

Hi elf1981. I can't really answer your questions as I have never been able to express milk even though I fed all 3 of my children. I think it is ok to keep breast milk in the fridge for 24 hours and I am sure they advise frozen should be used asap. Good luck with your impending arrival and I'm sure someone else will be able to help you more than me soon.

Elf - Breastmilk can be kept in the fridge for 24 hours, although many BF experts thinklonger, as long as 3 days. Personally I think 24 hours is best.

Breastmilk can be kept frozen for 3 months

Ideally if you are breastfeeding your little one, you should also give them brestmilk when feeding from a bottle aswell. Formula once in a while wont hurt once breastfeeding is established (about 6 weeks) but "breast is best" as they say.

There is only a very small percentage ofwomen who cannot BF due to medical problems. These women have hormonal problems which prevent them producing the hormones which make milk, or their breasts haven't developed proberly. The rest of us gals CAN BF but some women find it more difficult than others. You would be aware if you had these particular hormonal problems, so as far as physically being able to BF, you can. Whether youwill get on with it is another matter.

BFing is about perservence and learning. If you want to do it you will, as you will stick at it.

Oh, and its best not to offer a bottle to BF baby til they are about 6 weeks old.

Hope that all helps

Oh, and BTW, they weren't thick questions at all! If you haven't BF before, then no questions are "silly" - its good that you want to know.

And good luck with baby and brestfeeding. Hope all goes well for you xx

I breastfed ds and dd succesfully but never got the hang of expressing, only ever managed a couple of ounces at a time so this wasn't really an option for me.
I was always told to get breastfeeding established before trying to express and give a bottle, think I was told to wait til about 6 weeks old.

Katemum- its a shame you didn't get to grips with expressing. Its a funny old lark though and I know lots of mums who have trouble.

Thing is with expressing, you aren't going to be able to get 8 ounces off the first time you do it, you have to build up a supply. BFing is supply and demand, the more your baby feeds the more milkis produced. You brests will always produce enough milk to satify you baby, and a little more. When you start to express, you will be lucky to get an ounce. This is because you have only got enough to satisfy your baby's demand, and not that of the pump as well. But if you keep at the pumping your body will start to produce enough for both baby and pump. When I first expressed, I only produced half an ounce and was mortified, but I kept at it and after about a month I was feeding baby every few hours and expressing 8 ounces of milk in about 15 mins. So, if you want to express you need to build it up.

You might also have to experiment with different pumping techniques. There are hand pumps and electric pumps of various makes and ways they work, but never rule out hand expression. It can be the most productive ways of expressing.

I breast dd until she was 17 monthsand then she weaned herself. I never got to geips with expressing, I had a hand pump so I blame that because I was like a jersey cow at all other times. As somebody has said before in most cases if you perservere you will be able to do it. My friend who said she couldnt and gave up at the really sore boobs stage and expressed like a maniac for over a year is now happily breastfeeding her son. She realises now that she gave up too early mainly because she was a new mum who with hindsight felt under pressure to be perfect and this knocked her confidence and she felt she hadnt bonded with her dd. I absolutely adored breastfeeding my dd and was heartbroken when she stopped. My advice, is go with the flow, no pun intended. Dont put pressure on yourself. Another tip about your night out is to express the milk and bin it to get rid of the alcohol, so make sure that you have a good ammount for back up, thats what another friend used to do.

or even breastfed.

Ah, Lucy5, well thought of. Yeah, if you decided to drink more than a couple of units, make sure you have enough bottles to get you through the night and when you get up express everything you have from both breasts and throw it away. It should be okay after that and you can carry on BFing.

Got to go now, so bye and best of luck (again) with everything! WIll be looking out next month to see how you and Baby are

Just wanted to add that if you give a breastfed baby formula before six months old then you lose some of the benefits of breastfeeding alone.
Bf babies have a sterile gut which protects them against things like Crohns disease in later life but as soon as you introduce even one bottle of formula or solids of any kind then this is gone.
Guidelines are to breastfeed exclusively for six months but after that formula occasionally won't hurt.
Of course plenty of people mix feed and it doesn't mean your baby WILL have problems, and any breast milk is always better than none.

Roxwood, I'm no expert but I didn't think the reduction in protection was as dramatic as all that? There is a study that states breastmilk (with or without formula) for at least 13 weeks provides a longish-term protective effect against gastrointestinal illness.
Would still advise against formula though, as mixed feeding does interfere with the protection against allergies bf provides. However, most benefits (antibodies etc.) are also received when mixed feeding. Exclusive breastmilk is of course best. If you do use formula, don't give both bm and formula at the same feeding.
Don't introduce a bottle until bf is well established, as drinking from a bottle is easier than bf for most babies and they could end up preferring it and refusing the breast.
What you express is often only a fraction of the milk you actually have, as babies are way better than pumps at getting milk out. (they are also better at stimulating supply).
Bf can be very difficult. I naively thought it would just happen naturally and when ds arrived I struggled for 3-4 weeks before eventually cracking it. However, with the right support, conditions and understanding most women 'can' - sadly, a lot don't have this support or conditions. It's great to persevere, but stopping is never something to beat yourself up about.
Check up on your hospital's attitude to bf. If, once baby is here, you feel under pressure to give formula, consider getting a second opinion from a bf-friendly dr or bf counsellor.
Good luck for the birth

Congratulations!

Breastfeeding is a skill which needs to be learnt and doesn't come naturally to lots of people. The early days can be really hard, so try to just get through each day at a time. At first the baby's tummy is tiny, and so they need to feed very frequently. Sometimes it can feel as though babe is permanently attached to you and this can be overwhelming. However, if you can get through this relatively short stage (6 - 12 weeks), breastfeeding is so rewarding once it is established. It is such a confidence boost to look at your six week old baby and realise that he is healthy and well nourished purely because of you. Once established it is quicker too as there is no sterilising, preparing formula, washing bottles etc.

My DS3 is 5 months and the early stage is still fresh in my mind. I got through it this time by reminding myself whenever it got hard that by 8 weeks he would probably enjoy going under his baby gym for short spells of time. By 16 weeks he had started to roll and would sometimes spend an hour playing on the floor with me nearby. DH would also look after the baby for an hour while I had a bath. Is funny how babies often forget about milk if you are not there.

As for expressing, this is another skill and can be a difficult one to master. It sounds so easy to say to someone, express your milk. The reality is quite different. Don't expect to get anything / much out at first. This can be quite domoralising and also can knock your confidence in breastfeeding itself. Many new mums think that if they don't get anything out that it means they don't have any milk, the do, its just breasts were designed for babies to get the milk out not a mechanical breastpump.

Dad can get involved / bond in far more ways than just feeding the baby. He can bath him, play with him, cuddle him, take him for walks in the pram, sing to him. I found DH reading a story to my 5 month old today. DH also gave the first solids to each of my children.

Post here often in the early days whether because you want information or just someone to sound off to. We've all got stories about the hard first days, but will also be able to tell you how rewarding it is when you get through the hard bit.

Good luck with it all,

Mandy.

its not always the fact that women cant breastfeed but sometimes babies wont. my dd refused my breast from day one, she wasnt interested at all, she would much prefered to settle herself to sleep, i had all the midwifes in the hospital try and help and she wouldn't/couldn't latch, eventually after my baby hadnt suckled for nearly 6hrs after she was born i decided to express and she'd take 2ozs and then spit it at me, yet when i gave in and tried formula she would hapily drink 4/5ozs at a time, i kept trying her with the bm for weeks, and would get around 1oz into her everyfeed (about 6/7 times a day) which i decided was better than nothing, but i would have dearly loved to bf her if she hadn't hated it so much!!!

im now ttc #2 and i hope to breastfeed succesfully this time, but if it doesn't work the way you want dont worry, its not your fault some babies are just stubborn minded!

congratulations!

just in case you have any problems starting off, be prepared to seek out help from a proper breastfeeding counsellor (bf network, nct etc) if you have any problems at all - most health professionals know little about bf but are happy to misinform (i've been told a load of rubbish by midwives and health visitors). most probs are easily overcome with support and people here will provide all sorts of help and info, as they did with me when i had trouble establishing bf.

also, i don't think you have to dump milk after a few drinks, its in the milk the same as is in the bloodstream and will wear off the same way - just try not to get too drunk, or if you are doing well wiith expressing, use that.

oh, and bf can be a bit of a full time occupation in the early days, but is a lovely way to have a rest andget to know your baby. you will also get good at onehanded typing!

There's no need to 'pump & dump' after have few drinks. If you do a search in the MN archives using 'alcohol' and putting 'Tiktok' as the nickname you'll find lots of reassuring info.

Stacy,

I hope you don't mind me butting in here, but I think you were given some bad advice / information in hospital. Many babies don't feed in the first 6 hours and it was a bit early to be putting pressure on the baby to feed. Babies are constantly fed by the placenta which continues until the cord is cut. Therefore, baby is full when he is born. While some babies will nuzzle the breast and feed straight away, many more do not feed at all. Also, depending on the type of birth you had the baby may be sleepy and not want to feed. Certain drugs such as pethidene are known to make babies sleepy after birth (some midwives think epidurals and spinal blocks make the baby sleepy too, but as far as I'm aware there's been no research into this).

My youngest is 5 months old and he did not feed until 48 hours after his birth. For the first 30 hours, the midwives were not at all concerned and told me that this is normal. I had plenty of skin to skin, just letting him nuzzle my breast. At first he would not even open his mouth, but after 30 hours he did start opening his mouth and I would squeeze some colostrum in. He did not close his mouth to form a latch though. Finally, when he was 48 hours old he seemed to suss what to do and had a really good feed, followed by a long wee which came straight out of the top of his nappy and all over me!!!!!

What I'm trying to say in my long winded way is midwives don't always have the training you would expect them to have in breastfeeding. My friend is a student midwife and has told me that it has been dropped from her course - they don't do any training on breastfeeding at all.

Good luck with ttc. Mandy.

Hi Berolina,

We just finished a course in peer support and the lactation consultant was describing how the Immunoglobulin A forms protection for the baby's gut and that even one bottle of formula breaks down this protection and the baby's gut becomes colonised with "unfriendly" bacteria. And that it takes up to a month of exclusive breastfeeding to clear this from your baby's gut so that they get the full breastfed protection back. It amazed me, I didn't have a clue that it could make this much difference but I researched it later and found more information.
Of course breastfeeding exclusively for three months is going to give some protection, your baby's gut is a lot more mature at three months than newborn and so much better able to deal with it, but their guts are designed to live off breastmilk alone for at least six months.

Here's a link to more information

The other thing is that the baby may simply not like formula. DD1 didn't, after happily taking an expressed bottle (DD2 never had it).

I reckon you can freeze it for quite a lot longer, actually.

Also, your DH can be involved in lots of way - he doesn't have to feed a baby a bottle. Ds never had a bottle and I don't think it has affected dh's or the GP's ability to bond with him.

Give DH his own special job (mine chose bathing) and let him do it his way, and give lots of compliments, just like you would like for your breastfeeding. Also ds is 2.5 and although I have stopped feeding, dh still bathes ds - so as a long term plan I really did get more time to myself!

If dh had really wanted to do the bottle thing I would have made him do everything, wash and sterilise pump and bottles etc. I have watched too many women do all that on top of breastfeeding so they can "have a break" and always wondered how that worked!

Also BM is best right from the breast - it has the right antibodies for right then, it is the right temperature and you get to sit down, watch the TV or read a book. The sitting down is important.

Your night out depends on what sort of nights out you like - I found ds totally tanked up with breastmilk was fine at 3 months whilst we popped into a party for 3 hours, I fed him on our return. TBH I didn't want to stay any longer because I was missing him.

Hi all,

Thanks for all the responses. I'll be printing this thread off for information later!

I shall keep everybody posted about the birth and let you know how I get on.

Thank a million

You're absolutely right, Stardoman, about MW not always having the correct infomation about bf. Many years ago I trained as a mw & worked for a few years before returning to nursing. I then became a mum some time after & I recall how little I knew about bf. I understood the mechanics/physiology but I was wholly inadequate when it came to the practical side. It was like teaching someone to drive when you've never even been in a car! I had to pick up my skills from an elderly auxilliary nurse who knew everything.

When I started bf my DS there were so many things to learn that you'd never find in a book. For instance, I couldn't understand why DS would break off the latch after 1 min, scream & bawl & wouldn't latch back on. After many weeks I realised that the let-down was so torrential that he gulped it so quickly he ended up with wind. I learnt to take him off until the initial let-down had settled (about a min) then put him back on & he fed beautifully! It took weeks to sort out but it could have been cured in a matter of days had I been able to ask other mums.

Thank God for this website & I wish it had been available 8 years ago when I had DS. I'm now pg with DD & I'm really looking forward to bf again, but I know if any new probs arise I can just ask the girls!!

Elf

I found breast shells really good for collecting leaking milk from one breast as I was feeding bubs from the other. I sometimes got up to 3 oz a feed that way, especially at the beginning before my breasts had adapted to my baby's demands.

I think expressing from one whilst feeding from the other generally works well too, if you have enough hands!

You can keep milk in the fridge for 8 days (yes, 8 days). The vast majority of women - with support and help - can breastfeed. In some countries well over 90per cent of women breastfeed. It is rare to be unable to do so but it can go wrong early on if you can't get enough help, and it can be very difficult to get back from that position. If you do want to breastfeed, I advise making contact with a breastfeeding workshop and getting help from your hospital's breastfeeding consultant early on, ideally before your baby is born. For a night out, you won't have to 'express like mad' -- just a couple of times!
Try www.kellymom.com - it's a totally brilliant American site with the best, most up to date information about breastfeeding.

thanks Roxswood, didn't know that!
(am also quite glad to read your second post - managed after rocky start to get ds off mixed feeding and onto full bf by 4 weeks, he's now nearly 17 weeks, so should have got that protection back by now )

Wow Berolina you did excellently to get back to full bfing and he'll have had that protection back for ages by now!