Introducing a night time formula feed to EBF 12 week old baby

[ayjayjay]

A question for those mix feeding their babies. I am considering inroducing a bottle of formula for 12.5 week DD as her last feed of an evening to see if it helps her sleep better. Can anyone advise if they are doing the same and if so how much formula they give? She is a small baby (just over 10lb), currently if I give a bottle of EBM I give 5oz. Would 5oz of formula be enough to get her through the night or would 8oz be better?

Can I also add that before anyone posts to tell me not to stop EBF I have already considered the following:

• she is going through a growth spurt now so I wouldn't introduce the formula until next week.
• I understand there is no guarantee that she will sleep better with an evening formula feed
• I know my supply will reduce but unless I'm mistaken it will only adjust to eliminate the evening feeds I am missing (although let me know if I'm wrong about this)
• I do not have any wish to co-sleep. DH is smoker so it is not feasible.
• I know that for many people their babies feed less in the night after 4 months.

This is not meant agressively because I know that encouragement to EBF is given with the best of intentions but I have thought about the pros and cons and believe introducing a single evening FF is worth a try.

If you're willing to risk the benefit of exclusive breastfeeding/alter your baby's gut flora to that of an adult then it is totally your choice; I would recommend feeding the lowest amount of formula you can get away with as it's bulkier and harder to digest. Remember to give frequent breaks and look out for signs that she's full rather than just comfort sucking. :)

Would she drink 8oz? If so why not see if she'll drink 8oz of EBM? 5oz is a lot for a 10lb baby to drink.

Did you know that evening BF can be higher in fat than EBM so maybe she would sleep for longer if you breastfed her first then offered the top up - of either BF or formula.

re: supply, if you don't feed for 12 hours (ie 7pm-7am) then yes it will reduce supply.

FWIW I tried at 5 months and it didn't help. He slept less on the formula than when feeding from me directly. Probably because he prefered to feed from me.

I certainly wouldn't go for 8oz. Also worth bearing in mind that some BF babies have real trouble taking in formula at first, so it might be worth trying it at a different time of day just to keep an eye out for any reactions / spectacular amount of vomit!

TBH, you shouldn't really expect her to go through the night regardless of how she is feeding at the moment, as she is very little. As tiring as the night feeds are, they probably are around to stay for a bit. The decision of whether they are done by bottle or breast is entirely down to you, but don't expect them to just stop. She is still very young, and baby's sleep patterns never stay the same.

If you want to give it a go I would say 5oz max. Its harder for them to digest, and easier to drink, so bear that in mind.

Have you tried to give her a bottle yet? i tried a few weeks ago, my DD is 13 weeks and she won't entertain it at all. I am struggling to get her to take it although i am trying everyday. Just thought i would mention it as it's something to bear in mind.

I've been told to give her the bottle before she was 6 weeks old, oh well...

ayjayjay I had to introduce a bottle of formula in the evenings for my DD at 13 weeks as I was struggling with supply. I was pretty heartbroken about it but in the end I did what I thought was best for me and my baby, which is all anyone can do. That was two weeks ago and my DD has been absolutely fine. She doesn't sleep any longer than she did on EBM (which she used to get in the evenings) but she does sleep a bit sounder. My DD weighs 13 lbs & here's an example of a typical evening routine for us:

5pm She grazes for about 15 mins on breast but doesn't take in much.

6pm 120mls Aptamil First Milk

6.30pm Bath

7pm Book, cuddles, swaddle, (crying), sleep

2-3am Stirs a little so I pop her dummy back in

5.30am Awake for 20 mins feed

6-7.30am Sleep

So, we get about 12 hours with one interruption (on a good night ). We follow the Baby Whisperer's EASY Routine & have done since she was 7 weeks - works for us. Good luck! :)

I can't answer the rest as I didn't mix feed, but I can offer you some advice on supply.

Cutting out nighttime BFs will very likely have more effect on your supply than if you cut a daytime one - your prolactin levels are higher during the night and so send better messages to your body to produce more milk.
The important thing is to keep feeding to demand at all other times, rather than increasing the amount of formula you give - otherwise your body doesn't get the signals that your baby's appetite is increasing so it doesn't increase milk supply. It can be a slippery slope from one bottle of formula to complete FF - which if you are happy for that to happen is obviously fine, but just so you are aware.

I wouldn't go straight in with 8oz, if anything increased the EBM you are giving her to 8oz instead to see if she is interested. If you do go with formula then give 5oz as you do with the EBM at the moment, but be prepared for her to not want to take it all because it will feel heavier in her tummy.

I did mix feeding and even at 8 months (now only FF) my DD2 won't take 8oz, she is still on 4/5 oz (sometimes only 2).
Start with 5 oz if she can actually finish the bottle and cry for more, then increase the amount of milk.
With FF it is very obvious if they suck an empty bottle and cry like them haven't got anything in the first place, they need a bit more.

I give my 8 week old a bottle of formula at bedtime. I just let him take what he wants - sometimes it's 50mls, once he had 200ml. Doesn't get him through the night though as I bf him at 11am and 5am.

We introduced it just for convenience really, so he is happy to take a bottle/formula is we go out (I didn't get on with expressing). I don't think it has damaged my supply, as if we're away from home at bedtime I just breastfeed with no difficulties.

as you ladies sound like you know what you're talking about, can i please gatecrash and ask another related question..? i've decided to mix feed but am confused about how to do it effectively. ideally i'd like to BF at night and FF through the day..how will this affect supply? thx

i started mix feeding at 4m but my dd would never take a bottle at night. in the end i just dropped it after weaning. she started sleeping through 1m after weaning (at 7m).

Thanks everyone for your advice, it looks like if we do give her a nighttime formula feed it will be best to start at 5oz. I only suggested 8oz because she can be a little milk monster. I left DH with DD and 12oz of EBM so I could attend a work function last week. The silly bugger gave her the whole 12oz in 3 hours and she drank it all then still BF for an hour when I got home :)

Just to clear up a misunderstanding from my first post, I don't currently give a bottle of EBM as my last feed of the night. At the moment DD is almost exclusively BF on demand except for a bottle of EBM on sat/sun mornings so that I can have a bit of a lay in.

I'm also not expecting DD to sleep from 7-7 on FF but it would be nice if she would return to her old sleeping habit of 10pm-4am instead of every 2 hours or less at the moment.

violetbubbles it's encouraging to see that FF in the evening has worked for you.

soniaweir fortunately she does take a bottle, we started giving the occasional bottle of EBM at 4 weeks. I hope you can get DD to take a bottle soon.

I will feel sad if I do resort to giving a bottle of FF but I am so tired and when I get overtired I get very anxious and my OCD goes into overdrive and I have unwanted thoughts. I am planning riding it out until she is 13-14 weeks to see if the sleep regression is just a product of her 12 week growth spurt which is entirely possible.

Personally I found ds sleeps better after bf than ff, that's why I give him a ff at 8 and then bf at 11. Think it must depend on the baby.

I didn't particularly find that DS slept longer after a FF (we introduced a bottle a day at 10 weeks, he had not stopped feeding 90mins-2 hourly throughout the night, having done so since birth - latch issues, with hindsight), but it did mean that, e.g., I could go to bed at 9pm, DP could do the feed at 10pm-ish, then I would do the next feed at 12-1am-ish, so I at least got one block of a few hours. When DS was a bit older, DP started doing the 5am feed, while I did the late night one instead.

FWIW, my supply was fine, but DS was feeding v regularly the rest of the time, so it wasn't like I was going 8-10 hours without feeding! Saying that, some women (even real ones I know!) have babies that slept 8+ hours from 6 weeks, and they managed to keep BFing just fine.

Oh, and DS generally had about 4oz formula, by the time he was 6 months it was up to about 6oz. I don't think we ever really offered him more, but I expect he would have taken it if we had.

ayjay - I think your last point is very valid

'I am planning riding it out until she is 13-14 weeks to see if the sleep regression is just a product of her 12 week growth spurt which is entirely possible.'

I would just feed, feed, feed on demand for another week without a nighttime top up of either EBM or formula and see what happens. I remember so well thinking 'god surely he's had enough' and trying to put DS down, when in hindsight the quickest way through it is just to let them spend as much time at the breast as they want to because then your body responds quicker with the increased supply.

Are you getting a nap in the day when your DD is napping to help you with the tiredness? It's very easy to feel that you 'shouldn't' need to once they are a few months old and to put all sorts of pressure on yourself to be back to normal - whatever that is! Be kind to yourself :)

Just to add my tuppence worth.

I gave bottle(s) of formula in the night from DD being 2 weeks until 12 weeks. This was for various reasons including painful feeding and complete exhaustion. I too hate co-sleeping. I had no supply issues during the day and was able to switch back to EBF recently without any difficulty.

I think the feeding pattern you describe is almost certainly a growth spurt which will settle down in a day or two.

That said, giving a bottle at the last feed or during the night could certainly help you if the frequent feeding continues. At the very least it gives you and your boobs a wee break - esp if your DH will take DD and give her the bottle while you doze.

I wouldn't say that a bottle of formula would be any more helpful than one of EBM. If you can manage to find the time to express (I couldn't) then that's the better option.

Jemjabella mentioned the change to the gut flora if you give formula. It's true this would happen, but your DD has been EBF for the most crucual period. If you go back to EBF after giving some formula for a spell, her gut flora will return to their original state within a few weeks at most.

Probably linked to the above - a bottle of formula a day sid make my DD quite windy, especially bottom end!

HTH!

"I am planning riding it out until she is 13-14 weeks to see if the sleep regression is just a product of her 12 week growth spurt which is entirely possible." ... which is all well and good, but there's another growth spurt around 16 weeks, 24-26 weeks and 36-38 weeks so any 'solution' you come up with will be temporary.

I'll never understand the need/desire of parents to change the normal sleeping behaviour of a baby. They're designed to wake, get used to it.

"Jemjabella mentioned the change to the gut flora if you give formula. It's true this would happen, but your DD has been EBF for the most crucual period. If you go back to EBF after giving some formula for a spell, her gut flora will return to their original state within a few weeks at most."

Quite so, but some of the benefits of exclusive breastfeeding (certain protection from increased risk of allergies etc) are lost the moment you introduce anything other than breast milk.

Jemjabella - yes, but you really do have to weigh that against the effect of the struggle to exclusively breastfeed on the mother's health and sanity. Some people find breastfeeding easy once established, even through the night. But many, including myself and the OP, really really don't. Some women have the luxury of a relative nearby who can give them respite from their baby occasionally, to allow them to rest - many don't. And no one can survive without sleep forever, no one.

If the OP finds a way that helps her get relief for a few weeks, perhaps she'll be better equipped to cope with the next growth spurt having recouped a little energy. Anyhow, it's her decision at the end of a day.

Maybe I'm a horrible mum but I tend to look at the formula/EBF argue in simple terms of I was formula fed and it never did me any harm. There are a lot of babies out there who are formula fed and turn out fine. I figure if the odd bottle of formula makes it easier for me, then why not?

Surely it's better to be a healthy happy mum, then a miserable tired one? I've gotten to the point before where I'm so tired I just can't wake myself up properly, so when DS is up and wants to play, he misses out.

Helen - absolutely. I have wasted so much energy beating myself up about this issue and I still do. As with everything there is a balance to be had. I worked really hard to finally establish EBF, but that's because I had "ishoos" following my first when it all went horribly wrong. I think the health aspects, although clearly important, were fairly low down on my list of reasons. The absolute most important time for EBF is the first couple of weeks. After that it is obviously still highly desirable, but other things - such as the mother's wellbeing - are equally important.

"I tend to look at the formula/EBF argue in simple terms of I was formula fed and it never did me any harm."

My Granddad smoked for 40+ years and he's not dead but it doesn't mean smoking is good for you, does it? Anecdotes don't prove anything.

"Anyhow, it's her decision at the end of a day."

I believe I said that in my first response.

I also think that it's those of us out there who are struggling, find MN, ask for and get help and advice, who end up most concerned about this issue. We overthink it, and exhaustion can blow everything out of proportion. IME real life mothers who breastfeed with no problems don't tend to think about it and will quite happily give the odd bottle of formula without a second thought.

jembabella I have been patient with your previous unnecessarily barbed comment but
I can't understand your need to stick your oar in to every discussion about a possible cessation of EBF with your ill thoughtout advice designed to guilt trip already struggling mothers.
Really how do you think this helps "I'll never understand the need/desire of parents to change the normal sleeping behaviour of a baby. They're designed to wake, get used to it.".

They're are plenty of other posters like MumNWLondon, SirBoobALot and Alibabaandthe40nappies to name a few who are pro BF without being so heavy handed.

Haven't read all the replies, but -

We introduced an evening formula feed at about 16 weeks, and dropped it at about 7 months, when she stopped needing night feeds.

We gave her as much as she wanted, which was quite a lot - sometimes as much a 200mls.

It definately made her sleep better - she would generally have only one other night feed after that, at about 2/3am, and she dropped this once she was established on solids, at about 6.5 months ( she took to food really well).

She never had any problems digesting the formula either.

I would have liked to ebf to 6 months, but I don't really regret introducing the formula - DD was a fairly difficult/colicky baby from birth and I think getting that little bit of a break (H always gave her the bottles) really was a turning point in our relationship. I felt a lot more rested. And I have no idea why this would be, but she was a lot more settled generally after that - although I suppose that could have been a developmental thing.

That said, I will try and EBF if I/when have another.