Is it really possible to re-establish the virgin gut, or am I half killing myself for nothing?

[gaelicsheep]

I promise I will try to make this the last thread started by me about breastfeeding, for a while anyhow.

To cut a very long story short, DD received one or two bottles of formula overnight from around 2 weeks old until 3 weeks ago (she's now 15 weeks). I gather that this means that she was EBF at the most important time for the formation of the potential for healthy gut flora, but the formula will have changed her gut environment. I also gather that EBF for the past 3+ weeks will have put her well on the way to having healthy gut flora again.

Well having restarted EBF I have now also ditched the nipple shields. Unfortunately DD is still hurting me a fair bit, even though I am confident the latch is usually OK (I know I can phone a helpline and I probably will, but bear with me). The thing is that without the shields she is starting to feed more regularly and the past few nights I've been lucky to get a block of a couple of hours sleep. The only way I'm able to get close to 4 hours even is to co-sleep which I hate doing, and the constant feeding is making me very sore. I think she's feeding more often because I'm stopping her from sucking a bit too early due to the discomfort.

Now to get to the point. I am so so tempted to reintroduce a bottle of formula in the night. But the whole "virgin gut" thing is playing on my mind. Being a perfectionist I have this silly target in my mind of getting her back to her "pristine" state. This is stupid right?

I'd love to give her a bottle of EBM but I just get no time to express milk as she literally doesn't sleep in the daytime except for a couple of very short snatches (15-20 minutes tops) during which time I'm madly doing housework/getting washed/giving some attention to poor DS. So I'm thinking that perhaps if DH gives her formula in the night and I express then, I might be able to build up some EBM for future night feeds? But those few bottles of formula are playing on my mind.

AAARGH!!! What would you do?! Right now I'm dreading going to bed.

Helplines are great, but they can't do what having someone there in front of you can do. There will be something that can be tweaked to improve things but it may need an experienced BFC to see it. By memory you're in the middle of nowhere, is that right? Is there any chance of this?

To answer your question, "Being a perfectionist I have this silly target in my mind of getting her back to her "pristine" state. This is stupid right?" no it's not stupid! You want to ensure that your daughter's gut is lined with the protective elements of breastmilk which other foods including formula will strip out (see this article for an up to date scientific study

But at the same time, you can't continue to be in pain like this. The balance of risk needs addressing, such as are there any allergies in your family which formula could trigger (not being any of course doesn't mean your DD won't get any, but allergies being in the family make it more likely - again a risk balance).

Of course, she may be building up your milk supply and the constant feeding may drop off - or it may be a symptom of an imperfect latch. Again, you need someone to look at it to check.

My answer is, noone can tell you what decision is right for you - only you can do this. The scientific evidence is clear, which partly answers your question but only you can judge where you feel the risks v benefits fall for you and your own situation.

It's late, I'm knackered and off to bed. Hope this makes sense and hope you are able to work things through ok :)

VV sympathetic BTW - sore nips = vv nasty :(

Thanks organic. I'm probably talking to myself now, but anyhow...

So I've sterilised two bottles and the breastpump, plus two nipple shields. I'm thinking I'll try nipple shields for the first feed. If when she wakes again I might get DH to give a bottle if I'm completely knackered, but then I'll probably kick myself in the morning. Oh how I wish I had enough EBM in the freezer!

There are some allergies in our family, but only mild ones. DS, who was mixed fed from 1 week old, had infantile eczema but this seems to have resolved now. I think the allergy aspect is not so important for me as just meeting the challenge I've set myself. That's why I think it's stupid - it's basically me being stubborn for the sake of achieving a target I've set. That's just typical of me - I am so hard on myself all the time. PND has made this tendency ten times worse.

(DH is completely bemused.)

The thing is Hoochie she had one or two bottles at night for going on 10 weeks. Since going back to breastfeeding at night her sleeping's been getting worse and worse (or possibly that's just my perception as there's so much more pressure on me).

I would much much prefer to build up some EBM first and then start with a bottle at night - of EBM. But as I said I just never get a chance to express milk. If I try I can see myself going completely mental, and I'm getting there fast as it is. I can't see that I can possibly try to express any milk overnight while also trying to feed her - I'd be totally fit for nothing and I have DS to think of.

I just can't work out why this matters so much to me, other than being completely obsessive as I said. I can't help thinking this is the PND at work - the same thing that makes me have violent outbursts because I can't manage to empty the ironing basket.

Thankfully my nipples aren't damaged, just sensitive. But DD always did have killer jaws and I think it's the area around the nipples that is getting sore as much as the nipples themselves. And now she's taking to biting as well. She starts with a good latch and it just gets shallower and shallower as the feed progresses. I take her off and relatch her again and again but it makes no difference.

I really don't think there's a tongue tie - the girl hardly ever keeps her tongue in her mouth!

As another mum with a baby that doesn't sleep in the day I just wanted to add my support. Expressing is such hard work when feeding constantly. You're doing great. Have you tried doing one feed a day feeding and expressing at the same time? I do this most mornings. I get dd2 on in rugby ball on my left and then express with the pump on my right. Much quicker than usual expressing as no waiting around for a letdown. Hth

You shouldn't be ironing with a 15-week-old.

Thanks everyone.

OK, well DD seemed to want to avoid formula because she slept from about midnight until 5:30am this morning. Hooray! Shame I didn't go to bed earlier, but I was dreading it so much.

Expressing - I possibly could try to do this in the morning, BUT the morning is DD's best time and the only time of the day when she will amuse herself for any length of time (eg 10 mins) without crying to be cuddled. Hence it's kind of precious and a crucial time for getting essential things done. Like Mumsnetting (only kidding, I'm eating breakfast with her on my knee chewing the table). I can't do one handed expressing with my manual pump so I've no chance of expressing one side while feeding the other - mollycuddles, do you have an electric pump?

I can't take all the credit hoochie. I have DH at home most of the time. Without him to share the load with DS and DD there is no way I'd have got this far.

my ds does a similar thing of starting off with a good latch but slipping into a shallower one, I just try and hold him close to me really firmly so he can't slip back. Hard though as he's really strong! I've also just ditched nipple shields (for nearly all feeds anyway - i caved during the night) and am feeling a little bit sore :(
Well done for persevering, we're only at 5 weeks so am v impressed with what you've achieved

I wonder why they do that? DD's really strong as well.In the early days it was a real struggle to get her latched on at all. Sounds like you're doing great too - and well done for braving the bare breast so soon.

Hi gaelicsheep. Hope your day has been ok. Yes, I have a medela swing. Bit of an expense but as I'm expressing with a view to working in 4 weeks and then will be expressing at work about 3 times a day it's worth it but I can almost express with no hands which makes it a whole lot less hassle.

Hmm - I wonder if it would be worth it. I just dread buying one only to find it's no good for me.