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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

The baby whisperer

46 replies

Zimm · 23/09/2010 10:28

Just started this as it was recommended by a friend and I thought it would have good advice for when DD is ready for a bit more of a routine (she is only 6 weeks so we are 100% baby led in terms of feeds and sleeps). Is the author insane?? She seems to completely fail to appreciate the advantages of BM over FF and be under the impression that a BF baby should always go 3 hours between feeds. It seems she raised 2 robots, not babies!!

OP posts:
bsmirched · 23/09/2010 18:59

I am EBF and really like elements of the BW. We by no means stick to a 3 or 4 hourly timetable religiously, (DS is 11 weeks) but I do like the EASY idea and DS seems much more settled and content with it than without. As another poster said, she also has some excellent advice about interpreting baby's cries, which is invaluable to a novice like me.

pebblejones · 23/09/2010 19:10

MrsBadger I know... But I'm feeling a bit pressured and also I kind of think it would be nice to be able to have the odd day out without DS (he can stay with Daddy). Having said that he refuses bottles, so I could in fact end up feeding forever! :)

MoonFaceMama · 23/09/2010 19:19

Barkfox i completely agree. I think the idea of the routine baby, lead by ff, is often the cause of problems for women who bf. Bf babies (ime) don't generally fit the expectations our society has of what a baby will/should do. The obsession with sleeping through is a prime example.

In fact i know of ff babies who don't seem to like the whole routine thing either, and like pomme end up essentially ff on demand, with all the logistical nightmares that entails.

I just don't get how you're supposed to make a baby sleep/eat/wake when you want them to? Or how you could not feed i hungry baby, because the routine say's they shouldn't feed for another half hour. Confused

Pile of poo.

jemjabella · 23/09/2010 19:25

pebblejones - you could have the odd day out while breastfeeding, just like plenty of working mums breastfeed.

MrsHumphz · 24/09/2010 21:12

Bits of her really worked for me.

My baby does EASY anyway - he never ever sleeps after eating. Not sure I ever got the "Y" :)

Seriously useful having the body language / what cries mean part - as a new mum, it can be bewildering plus it gave my dsd a way to be really engaged with the baby, trying to guess what each cry "meant".

I love the way she refers to a baby as a living breathing human being (as it were).

Other bits didn't - my ds won't sleep for more than 2hrs and being told he 'should' at 3.5months isn't great.

Eitherway, she died too young. :(

TheSugarPlumFairy · 24/09/2010 22:16

moonfacedmama nowhere in any of the BW books or even the SWMNBN books does it say not too feed your baby if they are telling you they are hungry. I really don't know why people keep saying this. Both the BW and SWMNBN give you suggested time for when you can expect your baby to need feeding. If they are hungry before that then of course you feed them. This is particularly the case with the BW who doesn't set out an hour by hour instructions, just a fairly simple behaviour pattern (E.A.S.Y) which works on loads of different timings.

I have used the BW philosophy quite a lot with DD. both of us have thrived on it. DD is EFF and i do think that maintaining a routine is much easier when you are FF and are able to reasonably predict when the next feed will be. I think that one of the things about breastfeeding that drove me completely bonkers was the unpredictability of it.

MoonFaceMama · 25/09/2010 07:49

but surely sugar plum fairy if you feed your baby when they tell you they are hungry that is feeding on demand? Confused

hildathebuilder · 25/09/2010 08:01

I like the BW. I have had a baby on a routine when he came out of hospital, (he was in nicu/scbu for weeks) then went to BF on demand but used the BW to encourage DS to self settle sleep, then went back to the BW to put DS back into a routine about 4 months later, and I really really wish I had done so earlier. DS is happier with some routine, I am happier with some routine, and he will now nap for more than 45 minutes at a time. The thing about the BW is that is it not a schedule, its flexible. At the point when I went back to the BW I was ready to stop BF, but the aspects of some routine helped me to carry on.

the BW really helped me, and DS now feeds somewhere between 3-4 hourly usually, but if he is hungry before then of course i feed him. However BW made me realise I was often feeeding DS because I thought he was hungry but he was often in fact tired. Also for what its worth since I went back to the BW DS has crossed a percentile line as is now just over his 25 line having been before 9 and 25 for weeks

muslimah28 · 25/09/2010 21:15

TheSugarPlumFairy has summed up what I essentially wanted to say about BW. I think it's a great balance between rigid routine and pure on demand, and I EBF btw.

Yes, the stuff about asking for permission before you touch your baby is a bit silly, but the concept unnderlying it of treating your baby like another person is brilliant.

Also useful are her crying 'guides' as already mentioned.

Overall, the BW routine has helped me enormously get through some difficult times. And as negative as she seems about BF (although I wouldn't describe her as such, I think she just gives an argument for both BF and FF and lets you make your own decision...though I guess that could be seen as anti BF to make itseem like a choice for you to make rather than give advice on how to do what's best for baby which would be BF...hmmm maybe she is a bit anti BF then) I actually used her routine when I was switching from mixed feeding to EBF and it was what made the switch so much easier.

wow, didn't know she'd passed away though....

pozzled · 25/09/2010 21:25

I tried to implement BW because it seemed to make a lot of sense to me. I ended up feeling like a failure because I just couldn't get DD to be active after her feed, she just wanted to sleep. And if I did keep her awake, she then wouldn't go down to sleep again. I felt so much happier when I ditched the EASY routine and went with my instinct.

I can see how it might be helpful for some, but I never did understand how you were supposed to get them on the routine in the first place.

MoonFaceMama · 25/09/2010 22:00

That's what i mean pozzled! Surely at some point it means waking them/magicing them to sleep when they wouldn't normally. Not to mention feeding... If not then surely you haven't "got them in to a routine" they are just doing it by them self? I'm genuinely Confused

TheSugarPlumFairy · 25/09/2010 23:23

I think a good routine is one that works with both the needs of the family/carer and with the babies natural inclinations.

For instance we base our day on the BW 4 hour E.A.S.Y. DD happily goes 4 hours between feeds and could potentially go longer before she starts "demanding" to be fed as such but i offer her food at 4 hourly intervals on the basis that any longer between feeds and it gets difficult to get enough calories into her during the day without keeping her up later in the evening. If however she wanted to eat earlier than the current 4 hours it wouldn't be a problem and I would of course feed her.

THe same with sleeping. During the day she is usually up and active for about 2 hours before i start seeing tired signs. If i let her she will keep playing for maybe another hour and will eventually crash and burn and collapse into tearful sleep or she will push through and enter the overtired zone and be grumpy and whingy. However if i intervene when i first see those tired signs and take her up to her cot she will sleep and sleep for longer than she would if she just kept going until she crashed. By guiding her into a daytime sleep routine i am able to ensure that she doesn't get the grumps, and stays happy and an contented. She also sleeps better at night because she is well rested.

Hope that helps with your confusions moonfacedmama Smile

barkfox · 25/09/2010 23:48

I picked up this book today, just to check I was remembering things right, and wasn't doing it a disservice.

I think the view that Tracy Hogg offers a sensible middle way between 'On Demand' and 'Schedule' (which is exactly how she describes it), is more of a triumph of marketing than anything else. It's such a seductive idea - all the benefits to us of a routine without the feeling we're being coercive. When you actually scrutinise how it's all supposed to work, then as moonfacemama says, there's a real confusion about whether you are keeping to a routine, or whether the babies are doing it themselves.

Maybe there are different editions, btw, so I'll try and include page numbers where I can. On page 45, she says: " With EASY, there is no rigidity - we listen to Baby and respond to his specific needs - but we keep his day in logical order. WE, not baby, set the stage." It seems to me that EASY works when it's a happy coincidence - when Baby's specific needs fortunately happen in a logical order.

(I agree btw with the posters who say that she encourages listening to your baby, stopping and paying attention to their cues, etc,and this is a positive thing [there's a chart on page 86, lists different states like 'Overtired', 'Hunger', 'Too Cold' etc, and the behaviour your baby can be expected to exhibit]. However, her categorisation sort of promises more than it delivers, IMO - babies can be more than one thing at a time, and what looks enticingly like a 'key' to understanding your baby will get frustrating if your baby isn't displaying text book cues. And more on this later, because this whole 'listen to your baby' is undermined by her insistence on a routine.)

However, it's on the subject of BF she's really confusing. IMO, the book is basically written for FF babies, with advice on BF-ing slotted in in a fairly token way.

She advocates using her EASY routine from birth, and her timetable for a newborn, from 0-3 months, is on page 42 - "Eating. 25-40 minutes on breast or bottle; a normal baby weighing 2.75kg (6lb) or more, can go 2 and a half to 3 hours to the next feed."

Well, my healthy BF DS was NO WAY going 2 and a half to 3 hours between feeds! Was he not normal, then??

Turns out it's all very well talking about responding to Baby's cues, but on page 100, we get this gem: - "... no matter what feeding regimen a mum chooses, I am NEVER an advocate of on-demand feeding. Besides ending up with a demanding baby, what often happens is that parents, not yet attuned to the different sounds their baby makes, always thinks that crying equals hunger. That's why we have a lot of overfed infants - a problem that is often mistake as 'colic'. In contrast, if you keep your baby on an EASY routine, you feed every 2 and a half to 3 hours on the breast, or every 3 to 4 hours on formula, and you know that the cries in between are for other reasons."

I think that's such contradictory nonsense. You listen to your baby's cues, except when they tell you something you don't want to hear. Codswallop.

Then in the actual chapter on feeding, we get (page 108) - 'Don't watch the clock. Breastfeeding is never about time or quantity...Breastfed babies usually eat a bit more frequently because breast milk gets digested more easily than formula. So if you have a 2 or 3 month old infant nursing for 40 minutes, within 3 hours his system has digested the whole amount.'

There's also a side bar guide on this page, where it estimates that at 4-8 weeks old, a baby will take up to 40 minutes to eat 2-5 oz.

So while we have all the permissive BF-ing language of 'don't watch the clock/BF babies feed more frequently' etc, what we are actually being given is a model whereby Baby feeds for 40 minutes, and then has 2 and a half to 3 hours until the next feed. Tracy Hogg is having her cake and eating it here.

And a small thing, but on p.185, when she talks about 'dreamfeeding', it's 'nurse or bottle feed her in her sleep.' Which is fine. But then her big Tip is "Have Dad take over the dream feed. Most men are usually home at that time and most love doing it.' That's the Dads-With-Breasts then, is it?

The most bizarre BF bit though is the sidebar on page 96, called 'Feeding Fashions'.

It begins by telling us that 'Today, breastfeeding is all the rage.' It then goes on to note that during the postwar decades, only a 3rd of women nursed their babies, and 'currently, around 60 percent of mums breastfeed - although fewer than half of them are still nursing 6 months later. Who knows?' she says. (and I have no idea what that 'who knows?' means there).

She ends this odd rambling paragraph with this sentence - "In fact, a 1999 article in the Journal of Nutrition suggests "that it may ultimately be possible to design formulas better able to meet the needs of individual infants than the milk available from the mother's breast."

And there she leaves it. And so shall I. I much more anti this book on a second reading, and I think it would have had a disastrous effect on my efforts to BF in the early days. And I think for all of the language of caring and responding to baby etc, what she's actually advocating is a routine which ignores a baby's needs if they happen not to fit in with that routine. Very unpleasant.

eatsushi · 26/09/2010 00:11

I dislike this book so much.

Firstly the EASY method - quite frankly I did not have any "You" time for about 3 months, very misleading if you have a high need little baby.

And I am so sure that if I had followed the advice fully it would have scuppered by BF. I really hate the book because of the 3 hour feeds mentioned.

My baby slept through and I was doing stupid 3 hour feeds, my baby got used to this - I kept asking lots of people , HV's the lot about this and they all just said I was lucky.

Well my supply was dwindling my baby was hungry.

Thank god for a helpful MW who helped me increase my supply. My baby fed roughly every 2 hours during the day, with some breaks at the night for around 3 month.

Hideous book IMO. I think KellyMom set me straight - thank god!

eatsushi · 26/09/2010 00:14

Here is the review I was speaking of. I am embarrassed that I was nearly sucked in. Dr Sears helped too. Shock

MoonFaceMama · 26/09/2010 10:39

Thank you taking the time to explain that sugarplumfairy. Smile I have to agree with barkfox though. It seems to me that some babies do this any way, others don't (and some changes their mind after a bit, as many threads on here testify). I had been wondering about this lately after i heard a mum say she'd stopped demand feeding at about four months. How odd i thought, iirc that's around the time ds naturally wanted bigger spaces between his feeds, and no attempt at routine from me Hmm

Thanks barkfox for such a scholarly reminder of why i don't like that book! Grin

IslandIsla · 26/09/2010 13:30

I love the bit where she says a jar of baby food is as good as homecooked food.

Not a fan. I understand what you mean by the raising robots thing.

morethanasong · 26/09/2010 13:48

barkfox, if I could do a FB-style 'like' for your post then I would :) - I really think you've hit the nail on the head.

VeronicaCake · 26/09/2010 17:55

I was really amused when I looked at a copy of the Baby Whisperer in a book shop when DD was 10 weeks old and discovered that she was in fact an EASY baby. No one had told me.

DD's pattern from birth through to about 12 weeks was eat activity sleep. The sleep had to be in a sling or in a pushchair whilst I walked around so limited Y but it kind of worked.

I'm sure if I'd read the book in advance I'd have been going around telling everyone how awesome it was. As it was it was pure fluke that that was the pattern she picked on. Even at 1 week old the only time I could nurse her to sleep was at 10pm at night.

So yeah if you sell enough copies of something your product will work for some people who then advocate the approach to everyone else.

Unfortunately at 19 weeks she has become unpredictable and our days are a bit more EA(Y)EA(Y)SAEA(Y)SAEEESSSESSESS!

barkfox · 26/09/2010 22:32

thank you morethan - this thread has really helped me pin down what irked me about the book.

At the time, I think I discarded it largely because of the following (page 52): - "I'm not at all suprised when, after several weeks or months of trying it their way, mothers and fathers who initially rejected EASY call me back, either because their life is a shambles or because they have a cranky baby on their hands and don't know what he needs - or both."

I was reading it in a fairly speculative manner, and I just thought - I know you've got a parenting method and a book to sell, but don't you try and bully me, lady.

VeronicaCake, I think I recognise your EA(Y)EA(Y)SAEA(Y)SAEEESSSESSESS! routine...

jemjabella · 27/09/2010 10:03

Our 'routine' was definitely more EEEEAEESEEEAEEES ... still waiting for the Y Wink

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